What do you think?

Interesting read. It certainly raises a few questions about what exactly is going on in Chicago with regards to referee development, apart from the whole issue about fees.

 

According to a previous thread, MLS centers are paid $350 to $650 a game and division one college centers get $270. And that pay is below that for other professional sports officials, probably because soccer for the most part is a "minor" US sport.

https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=222008&highlight=referee+pay

The article states the center got only $250 for a high visibility televised exhibition with 80,000 spectators, which seems absurdly low. Why would you skimp on fees for such a showcase game, or think about getting "second-tier" refs? It really is an insult to the top tier refs in this country.

 

Do you think he would lie or has lied. Most of Dr. Evans posts in this forum and on his website have been for the good of the game.

I have no issue if he wants to stir things up since it's all in the interest of improving things. Does he have an certain axe to grind based on the treatment he received from the USSF. Undoubtly, it comes across in his website, but I also recognize that there is a lot of hypocrasy at the USSF and there is nothing wrong in holding people accountable. It is the ultimate old boy network and it should serve to develop soccer at all levels including refereeing. Esse and Julie need to represent our interests. Quite honestly, I am quite fed up with Esse's kissing of FIFA's ass in the hopes of getting a position on the Referee's board. If Esse wants to fufill his ambitions at FIFA, let him persue it, but not at the expense of his representation for US referee's.

I think a national referee association at the professional level is an excellent idea. We are clearly being underpaid at all levels.

 

Well since so much lip service is paid to the notion that the MLS requires more professional referee's if you are unwilling to foot the bill and the additional cost for higher fees and training/instruction then the league is being hypocritical. As for the issue of available money, I grant you MLS is not paying European rates and when compared to other established professional leagues the salaries are low, the average salay is around $90,000 based on the cap of $1.8 million and a roster size of 20 players. I don't believe anyone has visions of our referees matching the Premiership, but $250 dollars for a center is very low. I believe a minmum fee of $500 plus travel and lodging expenses would be fair and reasonable. The same should be the case for the international friendlies of which we host a ton of matches. If the teams, promoters and the federation are profitting, why should not the referees?

As to your issue with Tamberino, I would take it up with him. I think what is critical here is not to be devisive, but to be supportive with regards to our bretheren.

 

I want to thank everyone who has posted on this theme, and I need to reassure the one or two doubters, who perhaps don't believe all that I have written, or who think I have an axe to grind and therefore color my posts.
The standards of accuracy I use in making a post on the blog are the same as I use when I write for, say, Smithsonian Magazine, New Scientist, American Scientist, Astrobiology News, WebMD, or any of the other magazines and websites I write for in my professional life. Everything I wrote about the rebellion is true, as are the other items on the blog; my sources are impeccable, and notice that Brian Hall has now posted a response in which he does not challenge anything I put there about him. If you believe that I am in error, please tell me and I will correct it.
I am not into rumors, personal attacks, slander, libel as methods of journalism or expository writing. Accuracy is my standard, as it was during my scientific career. I do not rely on only one source, and remember that after 35 years in refereeing, instructing, assessing in the US, I have lots of colleagues and sources round the country. (I'm always looking for more, BTW, so let me know if you are interested.)
I tried to work "within the system" but was rejected because I speak my mind and don't play favorites. Refereeing in this country is in bad shape after almost ten years of mismanagement. I want to change that.

 

Now, about the amount of money in international club matches. They are NOT paid FIFA rates, nor does FIFA set the rate for these games. At the time I was on the FIFA list (throughout the eighties), we were paid $100 per day for the three days that each international match took for travel there, the day of the match, and travel home; plus expenses of course. The rate per day now is higher, and the MLS pays more than the referees get in these matches. Manchester United against A.C. Milan in front of 80,000? Game fee: $250! Twenty-five years ago I received $300 for running the line for Ed Bellion in Mexico vs. Argentina. What is going on here is exploitation of labor based upon the notion that referees would sell their grandmother to get into a match like that. Bravo for referees' solidarity in the face of exploitation!

 

This may be a stupid question, but why don't top level/pro referees unionize? I'm pretty sure most/all of the other pro sports referees are unionized. Perhaps there are reasons I don't know about that prevent this (such as enough other referees will take their places, etc.). Also, it is probably easier said then done!

 

At least we know why Brian Hall is not going to the World Cup...

 

It seems stupid to jeopardize the game to save a few hundred dollars. Face it, if the ref stinks, he can ruin the performance by two great teams, and maybe even get someone hurt. The NFL pays its officials $1500-4500, and they have at least 6 or 8 at a game, and they don't have 80,0000 people in the stands. To me, even $500 seems very low for such a game. You have a high profile game, you get the best ref available by paying premium rate, which to me would be like $+1000 plus travel.

 

I think we have a couple of issues here.

Firstly, Bob is absolutely correct in his assertion that for many of the showcase interenational games (National teams or International Club sides) that are played in the US, the fees that are paid to officials are just not in line with the quality of the players on show, and the size of the crowd. A fee of $150-$200 to do the middle for the likes of Real Madrid-Juventus in front of 75,000 is clearly not reasonable. However, unfortunately, for those games the Federation has always allowed the individual sponsors/promoters of the game to pay whatever fee they wanted to, instead of implementing and enforcing a fee structure that would vary dependent on the level of the game.

As for MLS, though, I think you will find that most of the officials feel that the fee structure is actually quite reasonable. The top guys in MLS will get over $600 per game, plus all expenses and a per-diem allowance. Even lower down the "pecking order", fees of $400-$500 are not too far off the mark, and actually compare quite favourably with other leagues around the world.

To the question regarding "unionization", and whistleblowers response, I'd like to correct one thing. MLS would not do what the NHL did, and bring in their own officials. Unlike the NHL which pretty much can do as they please, if MLS wants to be a player on the world stage of soccer - which it clearly does - it is bound to abide to FIFA regulations, which require them to use match officials from the FIFA-sanctioned body in each country, which of course is USSF. In the old days of NASL the league could disregard FIFA as they had no plans or interest to be part of the world game, but MLS is entirely different. It wants to be seen as a top world league, and as such they would never use their own officials, and be "suspended" by FIFA. Just never going to happen - and I dont believe it's an issue anyway, for, as I said, I think most guys on the MLS list are actually quite happy with the pay structure there.

So, to sum up, I think Bob is right with regard to his main point - those "international" games played in the US using USSF officials but sponsored by organisations such as Championsworld or whoever does them now. There needs to be a USSF-enforced fee structure in place that reflects the level of game being officiated and which these promoters have to comply with or else we will continue to see these people paying ludicrous fees for ever.

Good luck to to Brian, Craig or anyone else doing the negotiating.

 

I'll bet 90% of this forum is speculation without qualification. If it makes you feel better, that post was a joke.

 

The fact that a referee gets less to do an international in a filled stadium than he would working a top level college match is shocking. Based on fees from the college game, I think MLS pays competitively. I think more is required in MLS week to week but the fees seem to be inline with that. I think MLS realizes that referees would probably do the games for less but that it also needs value them enough for a rational referee to look at them and the college game, which does appear to compete for the time of referees during the later part of the pro season, and figure that his time is valued accordingly. I would have expected the internationals to pay more because of the amount of money involved. Its sad that the USSF has taken the view that fees are not important because of the ambition of the referees, especially when the USSF gets at least 10% of the gate simply for saying its okay to play the match here. The current Fifa's need the matches and the aspiring Fifa's would kill for them so they are taken advantage of. Its something that's all too common in soccer where referees are needed but not given the concern, care, and respect that's deserved. I realize that there are many cases where more money simply isn't available because that's soccer in the US, but the matches in question don't fall into that category. If there wasn't money in those matches, they wouldn't come here.

 

It's not a bad idea to recall what happened when the Major League Baseball Umpires Union went on strike. A lot of the top guys who left, were replaced by "scabs". When the umps didn't get what they wanted and agreed to end the strike, a good number of long time (fat and out of shape) umps were not invited back to umpire any more games. They ended up doing themselves more damage than actually helping themselves out.

That said, I will always support my fellow referee's in an endeavor to improve the conditions, fees, or training stcutures that we work under.

 

As for the issue at hand, I agree wholeheartedly with allan_park's post. Fees for the international matches should be higher and it's good that the referees are fighting for it. But MLS fees seem to be in line with the economics of the league, perhaps slightly lower. It would be interesting to take the median per game fees for referees and players in MLS and top European leagues and compare the ratios<<<<<<<<<<<<<< The Problem of this is that the international games Rank Higher then the MLS matches so they have to decline the MLS matches to do these matches

As for the other things. I do have some first hand info on it all. And what Evans is saying is true. And for the part of work stoppage the group agreed to due the games for Dan And Tom so that the Hard work by everyone prior to this does not get a black eye. And the hard work by guys like evans bellion , bolus, domingues , patlak , socha, bratis, maurro, as well as those in the first 10 years of the MLS to put the referee's At the Top of the game so that is why you see some of the FIFA and MLS referee's on the game and some of the non people. the non MLS people you see are those that they are hoping to take over when the others get too old
tamberino is a company man so he says what the company wants him to say