What about an all-times national teams top 10?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by MIGkiller, Jul 2, 2005.

  1. MIGkiller

    MIGkiller Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    May 9, 2003
    Rio de Janeiro
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    This time a ranking to elect the 10 best national teams thoughout history, taking in consideration their success, regularity and quality of football in World Cups, qualifiers, regional tournaments (Copa America, Euro), other tournaments and friendlies performances between national teams. Here's mine:

    01 Brazil
    02 Germany
    03 Italy
    04 Argentina
    05 Holland
    06 England
    07 France
    08 Spain
    09 Sweden
    10 Uruguay
     
  2. Borruma

    Borruma Member

    Jul 28, 2004
    Dublin
    01. Brazil (This is Obvious)
    02. Germany
    03. Argentina
    04. Italy
    05. France
    06. Uruguay
    07. England
    08. Czechoslovakia
    09. Netherlands
    10. Spain
     
  3. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Does club football count in this?
     
  4. MIGkiller

    MIGkiller Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    May 9, 2003
    Rio de Janeiro
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I quote myself:

     
  5. Sagy

    Sagy New Member

    Aug 6, 2004
    1. Brazil (unless history ended in 1957)
    2. Germany (a step above the rest)
    3. Italy (one more WC and 2 more appearances than Argentina)
    4. Argentina (not much behind Italy)
    5. Uruguay (two WCs should count for something)
    6. Holland (everything but a WC, great since 1974)
    7. France (not consistent through history)
    8. England (WC, but no other major championship)
    9. Czechoslovakia (two WC finals, some great qualifiers)
    10. Sweden (4 times semi finalists, once in the finals)

    The only team with a WC final appearance to be left out is Hungary (1938, 1954)
     
  6. lanman

    lanman BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 30, 2002
    1 - Brazil
    2 - England
    3 - Scotland
    4 - Germany
    5 - Italy
    6 - Argentina
    7 - Uruguay
    8 - Hungary
    9 - Holland
    10 - France (Just edging out USSR)
     
  7. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Pretty much what I would have down. Shame about Hungary though, they really should have a WC.....I think they deserve to be on there also because Holland, as great as they have played since 74 never won anything either, and Uruguay really hasn't done much in a very very long time.
     
  8. Kaushik

    Kaushik Member

    Jun 6, 2004
    Toronto
    1. Brazil
    2. Germany
    3. Argentina (so many regional titles, Confed Cup as well...therefore, ahead of Italy)
    4. Italy
    5. Uruguay
    6. France (more successful than Holland, starting from 1958)
    7. Holland
    8. England
    9. Czechoslovakia
    10. Sweden
     
  9. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    1. Brazil
    2. Germany
    3. Argentina - I agree with Kaushik - also consider they were Uruguay's only competition before Brazil became formidable.
    4. Italy
    5. Uruguay
    6. France
    7. Holland
    8. England
    9. Czechoslovakia
    10. Sweden
     
  10. Ethan Rom

    Ethan Rom New Member

    May 27, 2005

    Mig, my boy; Holland, England, France, SPAIN AND SWEDEN over Uruguay? That hurts!

    1. Brazil (5 times Champ! Enough said)
    2. Germany (3 titles, 4 times runner-up. 10 times semifinalists altogether)
    3. Italy (3 titles)
    4. Argentina (2 titles, bunch of Copa America, 2nd greatest footballer ever (if not the best), titles in almost every category, only second to Brazil but still trailing in the main realm to Germans and Italians)

    5. Uruguay (2 time WC champs, 2 time olympic gold winner, when this tournament was the only global competition -- 50 years of winning friendlies or giving great peformances without a title are worthless compared to any final won back in the Jurassic era of football).
    6. France (Finally in 1998 they crowned almost 20 years of the best football, and after that they won everything they played in the next 4 years)
    7. England (They need to win another major tournament, but they were the best in the during the first quarter of the 20th century.
    8. Hungary
    9. Holland
    10. Sweden and Czechoslovakia
     
  11. Sempre

    Sempre ****************** Member+

    Mar 4, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    The top 3 should be:

    Brazil; Germany; Italy.

    I don't know why Kaushik is using the Confederations Cup
    (who cares about the Confederations Cup?) as a reason for
    ranking Argentina above Italy. Italy have a better World
    Cup record than Argentina--39-14-17 vs. 30-19-11, the
    third column is ties--a better head-to-head record, and
    they have one more World Cup, which is huge. Italy also
    have the 3rd best historical average, behind Germany &
    Brazil, for wins-draws-losses. All that should tell.

    The only thing is play within the continent: There have
    been 12 Euros and Italy have made four semi-finals &
    two finals and won it once. But you have to consider that
    it only started in 1960; given that Italy was in its best
    period before WWII we can assume Italy would have
    dominated these had it been run along the Copa Am.
    model (which started in 1916 I believe?)

    Lastly, Italy have the best overall record of any nation
    at the Olympic football tournament, along with the former
    Jugoslavia. So though I agree it's a close call, Italy should
    be at #3 IMO.
     
  12. Kaushik

    Kaushik Member

    Jun 6, 2004
    Toronto
    My reason for ranking Argentina above Italy is the number of Copa America championships won by Argentina, which far outweigh Italy's impact on the Euro Championships. Winning the Olympics, Confed Cups etc. render further credibility as well. For a thorough analysis of the relative impact of these countries on the world game, one must take into account championships played at various levels. However, the analysis needs to be weighted with greater weights attached to the WC and Copa America/Eoro Cup.

    BTW, you should provide references when posting head-to-head stats (among other info.) so that validation by the readers is possible. Often stats are wrong/biased depending on the source.
     
  13. Germanshepherd

    Germanshepherd New Member

    May 19, 2003
    Rostock, Deutschland
    If we simply go by World Cup Performances it has to be this:

    Code:
                   winners   finalists   semifinals quarterfinals
    Brazil            5          7           10           14
    Germany           3          7           10           14
    Italy             3          5            7            9
    Argentina         2          4            4            7
    Uruguay           2          2            4            5
    France            1          1            4            5
    England           1          1            2            9
    Netherlands                  2            3            4
    Czechoslovakia               2            2            4
    Hungary                      2            2            5
    Sweden                       1            4            6
    Yugoslavia                                2            7
    Austria                                   2            4
    Poland                                    2            3
    Soviet Union                              1            5
    Spain                                     1            5
    Chile                                     1            2
    USA                                       1            2
    Belgium                                   1            1 
    Bulgaria                                  1            1
    Croatia                                   1            1
    Portugal                                  1            1
    South Korea                               1            1
    Turkey                                    1            1
    Switzerland                                            3
    Mexico                                                 2
    Peru                                                   2
    Romania                                                2
    Bolivia                                                1
    Cameroon                                               1
    Cuba                                                   1
    Denmark                                                1
    East Germany                                           1
    Ireland                                                1
    Northern Ireland                                       1
    North Korea                                            1
    Paraguay                                               1
    Senegal                                                1
    Wales                                                  1
    
    Uruguay doesnt have the regularity of success, but neither does France.
     
  14. LordR

    LordR Member

    Jul 12, 2002
    Germany
    I'd put Argentinia in front of Italy anytime. Yes, Italy has won one world cup more, but two of their three world cups were won in 34 and 38, one of them under very dubious circumstances. And in those world cups some important nations like England and Scotland where missing. Italy's post-war record looks pretty poor, 1WC and 1EC in over 60 years.

    My ranking would be:

    1. Brazil
    2. Germany
    3. Argentina
    4. Italy
    5. England
    6. France
    7. Holland
    8. Uruguay
    9. Czech Rep (CSSR)
    10. Russia (USSR)

    Spain, Portugal, Belgium, Yugoslavia, Poland...in no particular order
     
  15. Sempre

    Sempre ****************** Member+

    Mar 4, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    What I don't see, Kaushik, is why the things one should
    consider as secondary--regional play, the Confed. Cup--
    turn the matter in Argertina's favor for you. I mean we
    have a competition in which both Italy and Argentina
    have competed together and in that competition (the World
    Cup) Italy have a better record, a better head-to-head
    record, one more world cup, and a better appearances
    record. In any case I think the World Cup should be taken
    as the strongest criterion, since it's the most direct and
    meaningful of competitions.

    (By the way, I'm not sure what you mean by "championships
    played at various levels"--that sounds like youth tournaments
    to me.)

    The Italian federation has Italy's all-time record at 341-128-
    162 (the third column is draws). I don't have like numbers
    for Argentina but a site called elerankings.com rates the historical
    percentages of national teams on wins/ losses/ draws and it
    awards Germany the best 'number', ahead of Brazil and Italy
    and Argentina. Interestingly, the USSR, according to this site,
    ranks with the best. Take a look at it if you have a chance.

    LordR's points below I take as being subjective and irrelevant.
    From '34 to '38 Italy established credibility by beating the likes
    of Spain, Austria, Brazil, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Norway;
    in a word most of the strongest teams in world soccer at the
    time. If they didn't beat England at the World Cup it's hardly
    their fault. The English chose not to compete at these WCs.

    And if one is thinking about credibility, Uruguay's victory in
    1930 and Argentina's in '78 are less than robust. (Argentina
    lost to Italy, drew Brazil, and avoided Germany; the only real
    power it beat were Holland to win that Cup.) But again I think
    those considerations are not to-the-point.

    My sense is that one should first rate the World Cup, second
    all-time record vs. all comers (for that gives a picture of one's
    historical strength), third regional play . . . after that, things
    like the Olympics/ semi-demi serious tournaments. Perhaps MIG
    would step in to clarify which elements should be weighted at
    which value.
     
  16. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    You mean as opposed to Argentina's scandal free '78 win? :confused:
     
  17. Sagy

    Sagy New Member

    Aug 6, 2004
    If it was only the fact that Italy had one more WC than Argentina I would agree with you.

    However, consider the following:
    • Italy made it to the Semi-finals 3 times more than Argentina.
    • Italy overall WC record is 39-17-14 (67.9%); Argentina is 30-11-19 (59.2%)
    • Head to head in the WC, Italy has two victories and 3 ties (Argentina won on PK in 1990)
      • 1974 1:1 Group Stage
      • 1978 1:0 Group Stage
      • 1982 2:1 Second round/Quarter Finals
      • 1986 1:1 Group Stage
      • 1990 1:1 (3:4 in PK) Semi Finals
    All the points that you are making a valid and make this a very close call, but I think that Italy still has a tiny edge.

    If you want to see all Head to head results, goto FIFA's site and select Argentina and Italy as your teams.
     

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