Wenger looks for video help...

Discussion in 'Arsenal' started by NorthBank, Apr 18, 2008.

  1. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just heard that the EPL has decided to NOT introduce VAR officially next season.

    On one hand that's not surprising because there seem to have been a number of high-profile f-up's with England's video review trials this season. And there's been a lot of backlash amongst fans, pundits, even some players.

    On the other hand, it seems to have been introduced pretty smoothly in MLS and doesn't seem to be going away any time soon. So it makes me wonder if the referees didn't do their homework well enough in England.

    Anyway, Wenger and myself are disappointed that video has been delayed in the EPL.
     
  2. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
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  3. maskito

    maskito Member

    Jan 14, 2006
    Minneapolis
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Great find.

    What this article fails to address is that VAR also seems to be wrong on a regular basis. There is still a level of subjectivity in where the lines are drawn whether a player is offside when the ball is kicked. (I still think Pukki was inside on Saturday against Spuds, for example).

    Or when it looks for one play, then happens to notice something else during review that changes the call altogether.

    It also frustrates fans when there are game-changing decisions not related to scoring a goal that simply can't be reviewed. Hard tackles and diving are two notable issues that VAR could effectively minimize.

    We live in a stat-filled game, but I'm surprised there aren't public stats for hard fouls and dives/simulation for individual players and team as a whole For example, it bugs me when a team persistently fouls a player (like Pepe), but because it's by multiple players and never quite worthy of a yellow, it goes relatively unpunished during a game. I think that if these stats were tracked during matches, and also through the course of the season, then we would see a lot of the play cleaned up.

    In a way, I'd like to see if soccer could implement something like a power play from hockey. A yellow card means the player has to sit out for 5 mins. Lower level soccer leagues already do this, and I think it has merit at the pro level also. A team could also be penalized and have to sit a player oit once it accumulates a certain number of fouls. So let's say each team has to sit a player once the team accumulates 7 fouls in a half, when the seventh foul is committed, a player has to sit for 5 mins.

    A lot of rambling. Sorry
     
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  4. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Karo Viertel
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I agree with so much of what you say

    And of course Rugby and Cricket which had VAR for ages, already dealt with so much of this stuff

    I also agree about the rotational fouling.

    In Rugby, a team will simply be warned that the next profi foul gets 10 mins in the bin. It is stupid that each player can give one yellow card, but then often there seems to be immunity to double yellow.
     
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  5. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yup, growing pains. Also if Smith is correct, then the rules (and it was nice of him to be anti-snobbish and call them rules instead of laws) may be tweaked as a consequence of these VAR growing pains.

    Take offside. Didn't an older interpretation call for daylight between attacker's torso and defender's torso? I seem to recall that.

    I also think that quite a few rules could be improved by going "back to the future".

    For example, further to the offside rule, I would like to go back to the time where if you're offside your offside, regardless of whether you're active in the play, regardless of phases of play, etc. That would be much simpler, clearer, easier to referee correctly, and fairer to the defending team IMHO.

    But I digress.
     
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  6. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    FWIW, I'm still a VAR supporter, but I think the EPL really needs to improve the way it uses it.

    They desperately need to shorten the time it takes to make decisions, across the board.

    That said, on the toughest critical calls, I think the HR should run to the side quickly and watch the screen himself, rather than standing for up to minutes in the middle of the pitch waiting to hear what the other ref thinks. I actually think that might reduce the overall time.

    Replays should be shown to the fans in the stadium AMAP.

    Then there are other things I'm not so clear on: whether the types of VAR decisions should be expanded beyond the current few? whether teams should be given a few video review challenges per game? Etc.
     
  7. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  8. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Karo Viertel
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    We don't need to wonder about any of this stuff.

    Rugby and Cricket already cracked it years ago after teething issues

    1. The VAR audio discussion must be transparent to the TV audience, otherwise we are in the dark as to what happened. We need to be included in the unfolding drama. This is just so basic and by far the biggest issue.

    2. The ref should watch the VAR playback on the bigscreen with the stadium audience. Running to the sideline is the most laughably dumb crap. The video ref will make those calls, and has a monitor. No need for the ref to run off the pitch and hold the game up LOL.

    3. Like with cricket - there needs to be a tolerance. Ruling on impossibly fine margins is silly. In those cases, it should be "refs call"
     
  9. mebeSajid

    mebeSajid Member+

    Feb 16, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    This all makes sense, but deference to the referee doesn't make sense in the context of offside decisions, because offside is rightly seen as black and white. The problem is that the offside law is buggy as hell. There isn't really a way to fix it.

    And outside of offside, the problem with the Premier League's VAR implementation is that there's been too much deference to referees.
     
  10. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Karo Viertel
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    What i mean is like with cricket LBWs, there is a margin for error within the tech. Same with offside, there comes a point where agonising over the last millimetre can't actually be done with sufficient confidence. This has been oft discussed in terms of which frame is selected to make the ruling. I believe in cricket the rule is, at least half the ball must hit half the stump. Probably with football we need something similar.

    And once it is outside the tolerance, the onfield decision can't be changed
     
  11. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    They need to update the offside law imo

    I think it would be better if it was heel as hat measuring point or at least the toe flat in the ground or extended out in a running motion

    the current law means your offside if your shirt is ahead or even running the other direction if your studs are past the line

    seems a bit old and needs changing to me
     
  12. mebeSajid

    mebeSajid Member+

    Feb 16, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I understand that, but LBW is different from offside because of the variety of ways an offside decision can be "close".
     
  13. ArsenalJake

    ArsenalJake Member+

    Feb 11, 2013
    Charlotte
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    +1000 times this.

    I drives me insane watching these VAR guys during the broadcast while listening to the announcers essentially guessing at what's happening.

    Once the exact point at which the ball is 'played' is frozen in time on a laptop screen, we watch
    some dude with a a mouse move the red line and the black line into position and all is supposedly right with the world at this point?!?

    I could write paragraphs and paragraphs about how flawed each and every component mentioned in the above sentence actually is.

    The Pukki goal was the perfect example. His armpit was offside? That black and red line couldn't have been more than a pixel apart. I'm just glad the guy with the mouse found the exact pixel in the exact frame that denoted where Pukki's armpit was. Its a good thing those shirts were designed for these situations and couldn't possibly shift as a player moves or flap in the wind or anything arbitrary like that. This might make pixel alignment a lot like guesswork.

    Just tell me how it's possible that not one single announcer had yet to question the integrity of this offside replay process during a broadcast? Not one single utterance of, "how does he know if that's where the arm ends and not one more pixel over?"

    That's the real conspiracy right there.
     
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  14. And_ROOS

    And_ROOS Member+

    Dec 30, 2006
    Melbourne, Aus
    They need to go with rules like "CLEAR FOUL" or "CLEAR OFFSIDE"

    Someones toenail being matched up badly with lines that aren't 100% accurate shouldn't be used and should go back to umpires call.
     
  15. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Woohoo! The refs have supposedly just been given a green light to consult pitchside monitors, at least for situations involving red cards.

    I know they've been hyper concerned about trips to the monitors potentially slowing down the game too much. But I've seen plenty of huge delays anyway when the HR is talking to the VAR over his headset. And I honestly think the HR looking at the video himself, might in many cases speed things up.

    I hope this is a step in the right directly, assuming that HR's actually take advantage of the new guidelines.
     
  16. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Et voila! In Norwich's match yesterday a yellow was turned into a red, rightly so, by the HR consulting the Pitchside screen.

    I'm optimistic that the powers that be will get the whole system right sooner or later
     
  17. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Karo Viertel
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Did wenger get any video help yet?
     
  18. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Would have if you hadn't kicked him out. ;) :p
     
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  19. mebeSajid

    mebeSajid Member+

    Feb 16, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Orbinho recently tweeted about Dike Mean’s penalty awards. Awards arsenal penalties at one third of the rate that he does for the other teams.

    The dot com should have this on their first page.
     
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  20. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    The guy obviously took wengers comments to heart

    just look at the guy, he’s a complete bell end and a shit ref
     
  21. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Karo Viertel
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Back in the day when I followed this kind of thing, Dean had easily the most criminal data
     
  22. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Karo Viertel
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    He is paid like 70K per year to be a ref (last I checked)

    Of course he is rigging games
     
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  23. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just saw the highlights of Burnley-Bournemouth and Eddie Howe has a right to be annoyed at VAR. He had 2 goals disallowed for handballs which were actually shoulderballs. And one of them, from what I could tell, struck his player basically at the top of the shoulder, that bumpy shoulder joint part where the arm meets the torso. Surely that's not handball, right?

    I'm a big supporter of using video review, but I think the EPL is just doing it poorly. They should be erring on the side of giving the benefit of the doubt to the attackers, not the opposite. They should take much less time doing reviews in Stockley. They should have the HR looks at pitchside screens more. Etc.

    Other leagues, e.g. MLS, have not had this much trouble with its introduction.
     
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  24. maskito

    maskito Member

    Jan 14, 2006
    Minneapolis
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think it was NBCSN studio crew that pointed out these consistent and egregious VAR errors aren't just influencing individual players, teams, and results of matches - they are impacting the reputation of the entire league. EPL is the most watched and followed league in the world, yet no other league in the world has this level of incompetence applying VAR to fix even the most obvious corrections. The league could/will/already has? lose fans to other leagues with comparable performance levels but without the frustrations of how VAR is utilized in other leagues
     
  25. GunnerJacket

    GunnerJacket Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 18, 2003
    Gainesville, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Isn't the issue not VAR but rather the people making these decisions? It's not the technology or the process that's failing but that the VAR officials are being inconsistent both with the field refs and themselves.
     

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