Wenger looks for video help...

Discussion in 'Arsenal' started by NorthBank, Apr 18, 2008.

  1. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    ... and I wonder if he'll ever get it?

    Certainly not a new argument, but one which I totally agree with. Other leagues have used it, seemingly without ruining the game or undermining the authority of the ref.

    I guess it's largely out of the FA's hands and it's FIFA who has the ultimate veto right. Are we going to have to wait for Sep Blatter to resign or be ousted for Wenger to get his way?
     
  2. Publius

    Publius Member+

    May 22, 2001
    Alexandria, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The first soccer match I ever went to was Saudi Arabia-Belgium at World Cup '94. The thing that blew me away was no stoppages in play. The game just moved. Of course it didn't hurt that I got to see one of the greatest goals in World Cup history in that game too.

    I'm also an NFL season ticket holder. There are not words in my vocabulary strong enough to express my hatred of instant replay review. Even when it's my team's fate on the line, I'd rather see the game move along then be held up by lengthy replay reviews.

    Replay review for soccer would make the game virtually unwatchable. However, what you sacrifice to have a game in constant motion is quality officiating. I'm sure that one of the big reasons I never really expect soccer to truly catch on in the US is that officials get it right in baseball, American football and other traditional American sports to a far higher degree than soccer officials ever do. Part of that may have to do with the fact that there is a greater ratio of officials to participants in those other sports compared to soccer, but those sports all tolerate stoppages in play infinitely better than does soccer.
     
  3. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree. One reason I love football so much is the flow. (Same reason I don't much like American football)

    But even without any video review, the refs already can & do affect the flow with their hair-trigger whistling.

    I think video could be implemented to minimize flow disruption. A new 5th video official could act similarly to a linesman.

    Obviously the video ref would have to be as good as the head ref at making key judgement calls, and they'd have to be REALLY fast at reviewing. But in theory the advisory relationship would be similar to a linesman, who is often consulted by headset or in-person when the ref needs to make a crucial decision.

    (Has anyone ever heard Wenger say exactly HOW he'd like to see video implemented?)

    Anyway, with this thread I was just musing as to whether Wenger would ever get what he wanted or if FIFA would forever keep it bogged down in committee.
     
  4. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know this turned out to be sort of my own private thread ;) but I just had to add this...

    I was just watching w/ my 6 year old son, as Chelski got awarded a PK at 86' on a marginal hand-ball call on Carrick, which brings them level on pts w/ ManUre with 2 games to go...

    He said "Daddy, why doesn't the referree have Tivo?"

    Pretty astute I thought for a nipper. Maybe he's a future successor to AW? :D
     
  5. canadagooner

    canadagooner Member

    Jul 31, 2004
    Toronto
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    All they have to do is add 2 more linesmen, each one gets from touch line to centre field,
     
  6. Val1

    Val1 Member+

    Arsenal
    Mar 12, 2004
    MD's Eastern Shore
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Can I join your private thread, NorthBank???

    As you and Publius have stated so well, Americans do have far greater tolerance for stoppages in the flow, but then by the time TV is involved and the greater on-field role for coaches (ability to call timeouts and walks to the pitcher's mound), none of the American games flows so well. But as someone who loves American football and hated instant replay initially, I like it now. I have never been one to complain about officiating (the day I see a player play a perfect game is the day I will expect some ref to call a perfect game), but if we can get the call right through an outside aid, I am all for it.

    My modest proposal is not so much goal line technology or postgame video review, though I would be for both in a heartbeat, is to simply the give the linesmen whistles. Yes, I know they can wave their flag when a foul occurs, but the ref doesn't have to abide by it. I'd also let linesmen come on the field when you have one of those players-surrounded-the-ref incidents. I'd just empower the linesmen to be co-equal refs, rather than just be the second class citizens of the officiating world.

    The whole soccer-is-flow thing is a bit overdone, anyway. I do love the flow and the pacing of the game, but the soccer ball is only in play about 60 minutes of the game. There's much more stoppage than we realize.
     
  7. blahsheep

    blahsheep New Member

    Dec 17, 2006

    So who gets priority on the calls? Assuming the ref says no call while the linesman for that side says its a foul.. if you give both of them equal authority, there would be a lot more confusion over the calls, especially if the players have heard the whistle from the linesman but the ref wants to continue the play..
     
  8. Lanesra

    Lanesra BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 13, 2003
    LONDON
    Maybe they can give the fans cards with yes on one side and no on the other.
     
  9. blahsheep

    blahsheep New Member

    Dec 17, 2006
    Yeah, Simon Cowell could be the head ref.:eek:
     
  10. Val1

    Val1 Member+

    Arsenal
    Mar 12, 2004
    MD's Eastern Shore
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    It's not that hard, really. Advantage is a fairly simple call. The biggest complaint with advantage that player's have with advantage now is when a ref calls the foul when the team thinks they have they have the advantage. Problem is, the ref has to assess the entire attacking profile of the team with the ball and weigh that against the foul immediately and decide whether to make the call. With a second pair of eyes, both ref and linesman can take an additional moment to assess.

    As for confusion, not really. When a whistle blows, the game stops. It's not like professional refs are yelling play on or advantage. They let the game play until they blow the whistle. There would just be 3 whistles on the field.

    Just like players learn to play together, refs learn to referee together, and these kinds of issues just are not a problem. In all American sports, the refs are kept together as teams throughout the regular season. In football, there is one head ref on the field, and he stays that way all season long, while in baseball and basketball, the head ref duties for the game rotate among the team. I would envision the same for soccer.

    And lastly, but giving the linesman a whistle, you are making him a much more equal partner with the ref. While they have the ability currently to confer (wiring the refs is a good step forward) the ref has to talk to the linesman only when he wants to, only if he feels he made a mistake or wants a second opinion. Give the linesman the whistle and the ability to go on the field, and you might start on the path toward better PK calls for one.
     
  11. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Arsene's at it again. And can you really blame him?

    This is not meant to bring up the debate about whether Eduardo dove or not. That's been beaten to death.

    But instead whether this situation, and so, so many others could be more correctly decided on the spot, with the aid of technology.

    And thus avoiding these morning-after second-guesses, let alone the bizarrely disproportionate penalties by UEFA (threatened in this case).
     
  12. Val1

    Val1 Member+

    Arsenal
    Mar 12, 2004
    MD's Eastern Shore
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I'm pessimistic that we'll ever have better than we've got right now. Maybe the soccer powers that be would like to have such incidents continue because it gives the journos something to write about. Sort of an any-press-is-good-press argument.
     
  13. antifan

    antifan Member+

    Aug 14, 2004
    The Scottie
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Val, getting back to the "free flow" argument. What was that stat you had for how much time the ball is actually in play?
     
  14. LukeO

    LukeO New Member

    Aug 28, 2009
    Liverpool, England
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    They have it in rugby league why can't they have it in football (soccer)?

    They know it would work and make matches easier for the referee and for the players.
     
  15. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    they should have goal line refs to spot incidents

    each end
     
  16. Scally

    Scally Member+

    Aug 29, 2006
    Rep. of Ireland
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ireland Republic
    They are doing it in the UEFA Cup this season on a trial
     
  17. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    ^^yep should be a good test rather than have to watch a video and slow the game down
     
  18. Val1

    Val1 Member+

    Arsenal
    Mar 12, 2004
    MD's Eastern Shore
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    There have been a couple of studies done on soccer, the earliest I heard about were back in the early 90s, which determined that the ball is only in play 55-60 minutes of the game. I was at a clinic 3 Januaries ago where a guy from the FA said that the studies had been re-done to see if the more modern game had more action in it. These were done in the Premiership and he said that the 55-60 minute rule of thumb still applied. I have not seen any print citations for these studies, but then I really haven't gone beyond the 2nd or 3rd page of google... I took a stopwatch to an MLS game two years ago and got 65 minutes I think, but then I consider games to be 95 minutes of average (and it wouldn't surprise me if the FA stopped timing the activity once the 45th and 90th minutes were reached.)
     
  19. antifan

    antifan Member+

    Aug 14, 2004
    The Scottie
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thanks.
     
  20. wanye_stirrear

    wanye_stirrear Member+

    Sep 19, 2002
    Maryland
    I find this really hard to believe. I'm not saying its untrue, but I can't imagine that the game is stopped for one-third of the game. A foul usually is played within ten seconds of the foul being committed. With ball boys in place, throw-ins are played pretty quickly. I just don't see how the ball is stopped for that long.
     
  21. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ball is played 10 seconds after a foul?? That's probably like minimum, not the average.

    Think of all those free kicks that are 20-30 yds out. Two to three shooters line up and discuss the plan. The ref tells them to wait for his whistle. The wall organizes themselves. Ref paces off 10 and pleads with the wall to move back. Then he has a few words with opponents jostling around the keeper. After a minute or so, the ball is finally played again.

    Just to back this up, I fast forwarded today's game, and the first 2 free kicks like this I found were:
    1. 20' Evra fouls Denilson near touchline 35 yds out. 40 secs after foul, kick is taken.
    2. 31' Gallas fouls Evra 19 yds out. 70 secs elapsed for this one.

    So I think the point of Anti's question is that the game is not as free-flowing as you would like to believe.

    And I presume that the implication of this is that video review could be introduced in a way that wouldn't make this any much worse than it already is.

    I imagine a 5th official whose sole job is to watch replays while the game is happening in real-time and then alert the head ref as needed.

    I don't like the way the NFL takes long breaks for the officials to gather around a monitor. I don't follow NFL but that's what I recall them doing.

    I'd rather see the ref rely on the word of a video official, the same way he relies his linesmen for offsides calls.
     
  22. wanye_stirrear

    wanye_stirrear Member+

    Sep 19, 2002
    Maryland
    Those probably are the deadball situations that last the longest (freekicks close enough to shoot on goal) However, there aren't many free kicks that fall in that realm. Lets say everyone of those lasts one minute. I still don't see how you get to 30 minutes +. That's a really long time.
     
  23. antifan

    antifan Member+

    Aug 14, 2004
    The Scottie
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Exactly, put a guy in the TV booth with a rewind button and a walkie talkie to the ref. If he spots something, he can tell the ref immediately, or have him wait a second while he watches the replay. I don't see why it would take anymore time than conferring with the linesman.
     
  24. antifan

    antifan Member+

    Aug 14, 2004
    The Scottie
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bust out your stopwatch and throw on a game.
     
  25. pongo snodgrass

    Sep 30, 2005
    Toronto, Canada
    This would be the single most important development if adopted.
     

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