Week 4 PBP thread

Discussion in 'MLS: News & Analysis' started by Tmagic77, Apr 11, 2009.

  1. Tmagic77

    Tmagic77 Member+

    Feb 10, 2003
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    You're advocating doing away with playoffs. Not a single table. The disagreement is because you misused terminology.
     
  2. RapidStorm

    RapidStorm Member+

    Jan 30, 2005
    Denver, CO
    Are you familiar with the game that was just played? Chivas used up two of their subs right at the half because they were down a man themselves, limiting their ability to "throw in the kitchen sink" later. They had 12 shots to LA's 8, and forced Ricketts to make a ton of high-quality saves. They had a referee who was liable to throw off one of their players for sneezing. They had almost complete control of the run of play after Berhalter went off, but neither team ever scored because neither team had worthwhile forwards on the field, excluding Donovan. And finally, it's the 4th week of a 30 week season!

    You may not be saying that single-table is the only way to go, but you need to step down off your soapbox and consider a bit of context. You don't win soccer games just because you have a different attitude - the skill and cunning need to be there, and neither team had a player step up and deliver on that end tonight because they're just not good enough. A single-table, again, isn't going to make a damned bit of difference about that.
     
  3. B Rock

    B Rock Member

    Oct 7, 2004
    Willing to accept argument to an extent; but this is pure idiocy. In a non-playoffs format (credit to Tmagic for pointing out my incorrect assertion that "single table" equaled "no playoffs"), there is a VERY different mathematical formula deduced. Specifically, if you're in the reckoning for a league title, you're willing to open yourself up more if you perceive it to give an equal opportunity for you to find the winner as for your opponent to hit you with the counter. In fact, anything short of them realizing a 2/3 benefit by your tactical actions is a benefit based upon the 3-1-0 point distribution. Again, with the onus simply upon making the playoffs, a draw within your division is a much more palletable option and, as a logical person would deduct, affects your tactics accordingly.
     
  4. RapidStorm

    RapidStorm Member+

    Jan 30, 2005
    Denver, CO
    Tactics and attitude do not equal goals. In any sport or any formula.

    Last year, The Rapids faced Columbus up a man and down a goal. The Rapids "opened themselves up" because they were mid-table and thought winning this game put them back in the race for the Western Conference title at the least. They had, at one point, 3 forwards, two attacking mids, two wing mids, a d mid and two defenders on the field (a 2-1-4-3 for short). They shot the ball 23 times, yet Columbus ended up the team that scored the second and we were shut out.

    Don't get so caught up in the numbers that you forget that men are out there, and just sheer "positive thinking" or "attacking attitude" doesn't get you anything if the talent and creativity is not there. And single table/no playoffs that day wouldn't have made a difference because the kitchen sink was thrown in, but the individuals didn't create jack. Tonight, Seattle did the same thing, but it also didn't make a difference because they had no one who could finish. That doesn't mean that single table/no playoffs would have gotten them a game-tying goal, again.
     
  5. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Assuming your correct with your base assumption of playing different in game 4 due to having or not having playoffs (not something I agree with, but not he point I'm making either) you're still off base because you aren't taking into account the wild card. Only the top 2 in each division automatically qualify, after that its the top 4 remaining teams. So a draw within the division is not a great result if the Eastern teams win and gain 2 points on you.
     
  6. B Rock

    B Rock Member

    Oct 7, 2004
    Of course. But I'm not looking for goals, I'm actually entirely looking for tactics and attitude. You can never predict goals, but I'm not one of those who thinks the NHL is better now than it was 5 years ago even though the GPG average is basically double.

    I think you made my point; I didn't see the game you're referencing but would imagine it was enthralling and had quite a different feel from the safety first one tonight where both teams kept three men behind the ball despite their numerical advantage (at differing times). Indeed, as undeserving as Columbus' goal against the run of play was I'll bet it made for great drama (for a non-Colorado fan). All that a single-table non-playoff setup would do would be to bring that level of importance and passion to every game, as you wouldn't have to wait to be well cemented in 3rd / 4th / 5th in your division more than half way through your season to realize that you needed 3 points from every match.

    I think you're trying to assume that the goal of being the top team in a single table doesn't materially change behavior in comparsion to the goal of being within the overall top six teams in two table league (which is the minimum you'd need to be to assure playoff qualification).

    The bottom line is that in a single table league without playoffs, a draw for a front running side like Chivas against a mediocre side like LAG would have been trash while in comparison to our current league setup it is a perfectly acceptable result. It drives significantly different behaviors.
     
  7. RapidStorm

    RapidStorm Member+

    Jan 30, 2005
    Denver, CO
    Your point was, to paraphrase, that by switching to a single-table/no playoff structure, tonight's game wouldn't have ended in a draw as either Chivas or LA would have gone all in to win tonight after either one went up a man. I gave you an example of a game in a league that didn't have a single table, yet had playoffs (the exact same league as tonight's game), in which a team went all in because it wanted to make the playoffs and didn't win. If that even begins to prove your point, I don't think you ever knew what your point was to begin with.
     
  8. Andy Zilis

    Andy Zilis Member+

    Mar 9, 2005
    Rochelle, IL
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    "Different" does not equal "bad".

    In a single table league without playoffs, you need a lot of other factors in place to create any sense of urgency in games not involving the top few teams. At the very least, you need:

    1) promotion/relegation to keep interest in the bottom of the table (no chance of this in the foreseeable future)
    2) multiple competetive tournaments that everyone wants to qualify for to keep interest in the middle of the table (and right now, do any of the teams really care about the CCL or superliga?)

    The playoffs/multiple-conference setup is a lot more ideal for MLS than the opposite. As far as MLS goes, your arguments will ONLY apply to the top few teams. The rest won't even care by midseason.
     
  9. B Rock

    B Rock Member

    Oct 7, 2004
    My point was tonight's game sucked. Neither team played with any sense of urgency. Despite the hyperbole of the announcers, the saves from Ricketts were primarily from shots outside of the box with the exception of the Marsch shot off the corner in the first half and the best chances were created at even strength.

    Neither LA nor Chivas, when presented a 11 v. 10 or 10 v. 9 opportunity respectively, opened themselves up and threw themselves at the game. Both held numbers back to prevent a counterattack. It was the inverse of your Columbus v. Colorado scenario.

    My point simply was that MLS opens itself to this sort of play early in the season due to the fairly broad (8 of 15 teams make the playoffs) target that squads are shooting for. In contrast, in a single-table non-playoff format, a top team (like Chivas) would no doubt view the result tonight as points dropped rather than a point gained.

    As I made blatantly clear in earlier posts, I'm not pushing for single table, but I am pointing out an instance where style of play was affected by the league's competitive format.
     
  10. asoc

    asoc Member+

    Sep 28, 2007
    Tacoma
    How does your argument work when on the same night the Sounders were attacking and playing for a win while down a man rather than bunkering and playing for a tie?
     
  11. SounderMan

    SounderMan Member

    Nov 8, 2006
    Lacey WA
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We're new. We don't know any better. ;)
     
  12. supercooper

    supercooper Red Card

    Jun 23, 2008
    What does Davy Arnaud have that no one on the Men's National Team for the last 15 years (outside maybe Mathis) seems to have? After all, isn't it just a leg kicking a ball?
     
  13. ATLGunner

    ATLGunner Member

    May 8, 2005
    Atlanta
    I am really enjoying Arnaud this season for this reason. The second he got space in the KC counter you knew exactly what was going to happen.

    On a different note, Seattle confirmed to me tonight that they are a championship caliber team. A man down with a third string goalie and they still looked more likely to score in the second half.

    And on a final note, does anyone doubt who the next USMNT coach will be? People have always said Sigi's goal is to be the USMNT coach. He knows the talent base, he has coached an American team, and he is definitively proving this year that he is the best coach in America. It's just a matter of time now really.
     
  14. RapidStorm

    RapidStorm Member+

    Jan 30, 2005
    Denver, CO
    What you're doing is pretending some examples don't matter and some examples do as you make a point that is constantly changing when you realize there's holes in your argument. By your (il)logic, if I point out any of the dull games, and I quote from the article, "with both sides cancelling each other out and for long periods adopting a safety-first approach" that happen in the "Prem' or any other single-table league, you'd have to concede that they should switch their format to a playoff table.

    On Tuesday night, the Galaxy played the Rapids in the Open Cup and the Rapids were a man down for 84 minutes. There was only one target that each team was shooting for, as it is a single-elimination format. Yet, by all accounts, the game was poorly played and dull as hell until the penalties, even with the Galaxy going all in to try to get a goal. Changing the format does not make the players better and doesn't make the games better.

    Bad games happen, in any sport, in any format. Get over it.

    He'll pretend it supports his point without ever giving any logical reason for it to be so.
     
  15. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    For those with FSNW on a DirecTV or Dish Network Sportspack will get to catch the Wizards/Sounders game in about 20 minutes (1:30 EDT)
     
  16. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    I don't think there's a "Freddy" in MLS this season, but I could be wrong.
     
  17. sitruc

    sitruc Member+

    Jul 25, 2006
    Virginia
    I don't know how to respond without making a sophomoric joke about nitpicking over "D's"...
     
  18. FlashMan

    FlashMan Member

    Jan 6, 2000
    'diego
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Too bad about Keller, though I loved watching Seattle play a man down and still apply the pressure for basically the full 45 of the 2nd half. Lots of quality stuff there; I continue to be amazed that a team in its infancy can look so polished after just a few games.

    And as an MLS fan, I'm hoping Ljungberg can stay healthy, he really adds to the league.

    Wonderful strike by Arnaud. His long distance shot seems to be improving by the week.

    That ref was a walking disaster for the superclassico, though some of the players weren't much better. The Berhalter screwup reminded me of his messup in the Confederations Cup back in 2003, if my memory is serving me correctly. The Galaxy certainly found a way to bungle their man advantage, but I at least came away very impressed with Ricketts, another player I hope can stay healthy for his side.

    RSL is going to be strong all year. Kreis has that team focused and believing in itself.
     
  19. bright

    bright Member

    Dec 28, 2000
    Central District
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    From my experience of playing GSSL with and against your every day Seattle player ... the Sounders really exemplify the style of the Seattle soccer player. We like total football. We play as a team and know how to rotate into each others' positions, and we all attack and defend. Chris Henderson, Brian Schmetzer, and Adrian Hanauer all come from this culture.
     

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