(WC Qualifier) Austria vs. Germany 09.11.2012 [R]

Discussion in 'Germany: National Teams' started by ForeverRed, Sep 9, 2012.

  1. Dr Faust

    Dr Faust Member+

    Jul 12, 2010
    Germany
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Müller, Reus, Götze, Schürrle and - to a lesser, but improving degree, Özil - can all execute perfectly fine when they are told/allowed/encouraged to.

    Neither of them are aerial threats though, that much is true. Apart from Klose (and Gomez) I see no aerial threats in the entire squad, unless you count players like Hummels/Badstuber in dead ball situations.
     
  2. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    You're absolutely right. And I think this is down to inexperience. We have to remember this side is so young and these players haven't played all that much together. The core play at Madrid, Dortmund, and Bayern, three very different sides actually so it really requires time for them to gel. I'm afraid Loew isn't easing this process though.

    I would love a more mobile, fit and sharp option to Klose. Then this 4-2-3-1 would function better but we simply don't have that so we are trying to play the formation to the best of our abilities but there are players who are suited to other options so I agree. This is where Loew can't afford to be tentative. I just can't understand why he's so limited and stubborn in making the necessary changes.

    You're right. He needs to take that extra bold step but so far we have seen that twice. One against Ukraine and then again against Greece and Switzerland and more recently against Faroes. That is simply too inconsistent to work. You could tell he was so shocked at the result in Ukraine to never entertain a three man backline again. He was even more shocked at the Switzerland result and opted for an ultra defensive/negative approach at the Euros.
     
  3. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    This is all premature though.

    How do you know this can't work when we haven't seen this put into action at all?

    What Loew has done is not what you're describing at all. You previously made Barcelona comparisons and that couldn't be further from the truth.

    Loew still encourages the team to get forward as quickly as possible. There is no slow build up.

    The tentativeness you see when we approach the final third is pure inexperience and lack of concentration. We over-do it because we don't think and build up plays. This tactic is working against Loew's instincts to get the ball forward so it's eating away at its effectiveness.

    We have smart players who can combine, move together and build up plays. We still lack the killer instinct but with these types of players it is unfair to them to play them in a shape and manner which isn't conducive to the best of their abilities.

    the 4-1-4-1 is a decent step forward but with that must come more instructions, one in the manner we build up. We can't just change shape and expect everyone to click right away. This is what Loew lacks. He doesn't understand the Barcelona/Spain model at all.
     
  4. Dage

    Dage Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 4, 2008
    Berlin
    Club:
    Borussia Mönchengladbach
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    It's not a stretch for Löw, it will just never be possible. What do you do if one of those 4 falls out due to injury, suspension, form etc. Müller _maybe_ could be replaced by Schürrle but Götze, Özil and Reus can not. You prefer a system that sounds good on paper because it allows us to field all of our high skilled players but it is a change in system and tactics which isn't removed easily if neccessary and which is extremely vulnerable and depending on the premise that exactly these 4 players can play. This is nothing a Bundestrainer can rely on.
     
  5. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    ...That's why you prepare it with backups. Schuerrle can slot in, can't he? Kroos can slot in, can't he? They're not better options but they are still good options. Then there's Draxler and more attacking talent coming through. The foundation for this needs to be set though.

    Besides, Loew would obviously have to come up with a plan B.

    The four players should play because it's the system that suits them and can potentially get us to the next level, not only because they are the four best at the moment. As a manager you try to get the best out of your team but you also keep an eye on the competition. You adapt tactics to your opponents. Loew hasn't done that and continues to show negligence and signs that he won't but I think we are all in tune to the reality that something does need to change, whether it's gradual or not, but we would like to see it happen because we simply don't have time not to do anything.
     
  6. Dage

    Dage Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 4, 2008
    Berlin
    Club:
    Borussia Mönchengladbach
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    It's still naive in my eyes. The players you mentioned are good but not great and the false 9 system is not a great system for itself. It needs extremely talented midfielders and a very good clicking team. It's not like you can replace a Götze with Kroos or an Özil with Holtby. That will just not work. It even did not work at Barca with a Messi who can score for fun at the highest level. This system is an illusion.
     
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  7. Dhajj

    Dhajj Member+

    Nov 25, 2010
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I think the 4-2-3-1 option is what we should try to perfect.
    The 4-1-4-1 option is our plan B, for teams that are just going to bunker against u.
     
  8. Raumdeuter

    Raumdeuter Member+

    Jan 14, 2009
    Texas
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Most of these attacking players we have(aside Schurrle) their first instinct is to pass/assist. Even the Barcelona no striker model works because they have a Messi who shoots a lot, is exceptionally skilled like no one on earth and can score when sleeping

    I cant remember the last time Germany had no decent header of the ball or our corners were just wasted serially
     
  9. ForeverRed

    ForeverRed Member+

    Aug 18, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    You must really think low of Löw and the players to believe this.
     
  10. Dage

    Dage Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 4, 2008
    Berlin
    Club:
    Borussia Mönchengladbach
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Yea THAT must be the reason, really. To be specific it's the opposite. I think so high of them that I trust Löw to not create this "use no forward but rely on four almost irreplaceable midfielders" the main system because of it's obvious flaws.
     
  11. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    You must have an extremely narrow view of the formation to belittle it so much.

    Every formation has its flaws. If history proves anything it's that systems are inherently prone to be matched. The teams that do best are those that stay ahead and progress. That's what it's about.

    How can you say a system that has created records for the last four years is not a great system? Of course it takes great players but that's why we should attempt to understand it. Not only because we need to outwit the one opponent who implements it but because our players are that good and mostly because rigid 4-2-3-1'a and overly linear counter attacking teams are a weakness in football now. We have seen this time and time again domestically, in the CL, and on the international stage.

    We shouldn't be surprised that this summer's Euro finalists were the two most tactically versatile teams in the tournament.
     
  12. CanStriker

    CanStriker Member

    Oct 6, 2010
    It looks like Klopp and Loew both view Reus purely as a winger now. It is hard to see that changing, unless something happens to Lewandowski--who has looked less than stellar in his first two matches--at Dortmund.

    Podolski did look better in the 15 minutes we saw of him playing at CF than he has on the wing in recent times. IMO to properly test him there he needs to be given a game or at least a full half, otherwise we simply don't have much to go on. Especially last match where our team was time wasting for the last 15 minutes.
     
  13. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I agree with this to an extent.

    For Dortmund he is still interchanging with Lewanwoski. At times he is the highest player up on the pitch and in the last two matches especially, Lewandowski played increasingly deeper. So Reus on paper fills Kagawa's role but he doesn't play like him. In fact, Klopp's dilemma now is that Lewa and Reus oftentimes occupy the same space and Reus is not as much a playmaker as he is a forward.

    What I agree with is that Loew doesn't see this.

    Can't see this. Not even close. Podolski, albeit getting little time but let's be honest, he is in his late 20's an experience should more than make up for the time he requires to show he can play the role. He simply didn't play it well. The ball came to him several times when he had his back to goal. He just laid it off to the player nearby. When he received the ball on his right, he had to take one or two extra steps to get it on his left and thus drew defenders, eventually losing it. He simply doesn't have the tools to play the dynamic role in our formation. He's more mobile than Gomez, yes but he doesn't have Klose's instincts or abilities and just because he used to be a starter doesn't mean we have to integrate him for the sake of doing so but that's what Loew is doing.
     
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  14. Weltmann

    Weltmann Member

    Sep 9, 2012
    I don`t think will be seeing Boateng anytime soon. He is good as a back up for CB or RB. Lets hope Low sees the light and gives Bender a chance to play on the right just like at the Euros eventhough it was just one game,but i will never forget his sprint down the field for that goal..
     
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  15. ForeverRed

    ForeverRed Member+

    Aug 18, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    You know, every system has its flaws. Just like every system has its strengths or can be effective or ineffective. It's about the personnel, how its coached and how its executed. We're lucky to have a big group of players available that can be moulded to pretty much any system in theory. Some probably suit them better than others but we'll never know if we don't try.
     
  16. odd1234

    odd1234 Member

    Mar 2, 2011
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    when it comes to instinct, Gomez surely is one of the sharpest strikers. He scored 3 goals for us at the euros, and was the second highest goalscorer in the CL, truly impressive even if he doesnt fit our system.
     
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  17. CanStriker

    CanStriker Member

    Oct 6, 2010
    Reus was unimpressive in his last BL match, but on form in the 2 matches before that. Lewandowski meanwhile was on fire in the preseason, but since his goal in the supercup, has pulled off quite the disappearing act. It's funny because I've yet to watch a game where both players were on form at the same time (once that happens, watch out Bundesliga).

    While Dortmund's play is more fluid than our rigid 4-2-3-1, Reus is still behind the striker, and primarily plays off Lewandowski. Don't get me wrong, I would love for Klopp to test him at CF. And if Lewandowski's poor play continues, maybe we will get to see that after all.

    What's this, SirManchester arguing with himself? :oops:

    You can't see what exactly? All I did was state some facts, such as Podolski played a mere 15 minutes, and that this is not enough to go on, no matter which side of the debate one chooses to support. Nothing out of the ordinary, but you got your panties in a twist for some reason. ;)
     
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  18. odd1234

    odd1234 Member

    Mar 2, 2011
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Precisely. The team is moulded into that, not sure why low wants these changes now.
     
  19. Dage

    Dage Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 4, 2008
    Berlin
    Club:
    Borussia Mönchengladbach
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Löw doesn't change the system ?!
     
  20. d3rd3vil

    d3rd3vil Member

    Jan 3, 2012
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Atfer the Argentina game another horrible game....

    Well they have to improve a lot, again, to compete with the best. And after the winter break they have to improve again and in 2014 again.....always good and bad. Pure luck what we'll see during the World Cup :rolleyes:
     
  21. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    He is an excellent striker in many ways, that's for sure. And a top guy.
     
  22. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    hmm..strange reaction from you.

    I just don't see Podolski as a striking option. For me, five minutes is more than enough to assess him. Let's be very clear here. We know what we get from him. No more time will change that.
     
  23. Dhajj

    Dhajj Member+

    Nov 25, 2010
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    We have had 6+ years to know what poldi is and isn't capable of..
     
  24. odd1234

    odd1234 Member

    Mar 2, 2011
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Exactly, I think he's still a very valuable option for us, and would get my vote if he does well at arsenal.
     
  25. Dr Faust

    Dr Faust Member+

    Jul 12, 2010
    Germany
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Podolski is a valuable player to have and keep on the bench, since he's greatly talented at keeping everyone entertained and in a good mood.
     

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