WC Qatar 2022 - The Cup of Shame

Discussion in 'Germany: National Teams' started by Dage, Oct 25, 2022.

  1. saj7866

    saj7866 Member+

    Dortmund
    Germany
    May 10, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Also, they've had 12 years to question the legitimacy and the Human rights records but no, we will leave it right till we kick off at the tournament and basically throw the players under the bus who already have enormous pressure on them as it is.
     
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  2. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Namibia
    Possible but I don't get the feeling it had much to do with the Japan result as the team played well for 70 mins

    What tends to happen on this stuff is when you lose, everyone dredges up all the beefs even if they had not much to do with the result.

    For instance, I would completely believe, that as usual, there were divisions between the Bayern players and the others. (They worked very hard on this in '14). So then when everything blows up, people who are unsatisfied with Neuer start talking to the media.
     
  3. Shwass5555

    Shwass5555 Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Nov 21, 2022
    While I still think Flick can turn this team around if he was to walk away, I would be very happy with Tuchel. At least he would fix the defense once and for all.
     
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  4. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Namibia
    For me that is more the issue. Why not just take it off the table.

    I think that is the through line - Flick just doesn't seem to have been able to make critical decisions at times
     
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  5. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Namibia
    I think Flick will learn a lot from this, if they do the debrief properly.
     
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  6. Shwass5555

    Shwass5555 Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Nov 21, 2022
    I think the Japan loss was more due to taking Gündogan off so Goretzka 's feelings arent hurt for not playing any minutes.

    Fair enough.

    As the Bayern players vs the rest, I think a better leadership would/should have resolved that problem. Flick being an ex Bayern coach could have annoyed few i guess too.

    I would love if the DFB try and lure Rangnick for a job to clean house and rebuild the DFB from the ground up
     
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  7. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Namibia
    It was interesting watching Portugal last night, just how much control they had in midfield.

    I get why people wanted the Bayern midfield duo plus JM, but to me that is just too gung ho when you don't have the bayern defence, and the ability to drill the systems week in week out.

    Now that Gundo is likely not available, I wonder if Flick will indeed go for the Bayern 3, but perhaps more defensive orientation?
     
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  8. Alex C

    Alex C Member+

    Oct 27, 2015
    Chatham
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    The funny thing is you see several of the NT players taking vacations in Dubai, clubs have winter training camps there etc when they have similar laws to Qatar.
     
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  9. Alex C

    Alex C Member+

    Oct 27, 2015
    Chatham
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Tbh I would rather see us use a proper 6, maybe Weigl? I also hope to see Dahoud finally get fit and stay fit for a while, at times he has looked very good at Dortmund but his caeer is so stop start. Also Neuhaus hopefully can get back to his best next year. We need more options in midfield.
     
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  10. Shwass5555

    Shwass5555 Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Nov 21, 2022

    The defensive personnel at Bayern from Flick days werent as good as what we have now. Bayern's Flick always depended on outscoring the opposition. He was happy to concede 2-3 goals because he knew the team would score 5. Problem for the national team is we dont have a focal point like Flick had at Bayern (in Lewandowski).

    I think Flick believes in his high line high pressing system and i dont see that changing much behind the ball, its what he does when we have the ball that needs tweaking due to the lack of real experienced number 9.

    Personally i was hoping we would see the Bayern block behind Füllkrug (similar to the way Nagelsmann started setting up with Choupo Moting after the failure of the false 9 experiment)
     
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  11. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Namibia
    But don't you feel, even with Fullkrug, that it is just too aggressive?

    The team looked defensively much more stable vs Spain with 5 in midfield and being more conservative about pushing up.

    Watching Portugal last night in a 4-3-3, they have a clear 6, and Felix does a great job of balancing midfield as 8, Bruno plays almost like a true second striker as the 10

    For germany, you'd often see Goretzka far advanced, but he is supposed to be the 8

    maybe the answer is a true 6, so Kimmich and LG can play as 8s
     
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  12. Shwass5555

    Shwass5555 Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Nov 21, 2022
    I dont disagree at all, I just dont think he believes in a "true 6". I think the tactics against Spain were unique to that game because of the position game that Spain plays so we had to press them differently.

    Again, this is only based on me watching Bayern week in week out the more aggressive in attack the better it was for Flick and it worked. He likes to press oppositions into submission, a lot of our goals came from pressing oppositions in their own half (even their own final third.....The Barca 8-2 game comes to mind).


    I do hope he tweaks his game plan enough to do something meaningful with this team, because it would be a waste of another cycle if he doesnt. Before 2018 we made 12 out of 16 world cup semi finals, and 7 world cup finals.....we need to get back to that
     
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  13. saj7866

    saj7866 Member+

    Dortmund
    Germany
    May 10, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    The answer is we lack a quality 6 who fits the bill. There was alot questioning Flicks squad selection at the time which clearly had a imbalance in CDM position.
     
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  14. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Namibia
    Yes - Flick believes in the double pivot but rather than single pivot system
     
  15. poorvi

    poorvi Member+

    Feb 5, 2006
    Bombay
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    My guess is that Flick had no other option.
    Typically a manager chooses a single pivot when the wing backs are pacy. And can rush back to help out defensively.
    Also Suele is slow, even for a CB.

    Flick simply didn't have the luxury of a choice.
     
  16. Shwass5555

    Shwass5555 Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Nov 21, 2022
    I Agree about the lack of options for a no 6. We have a lot of good options for no 8s so maybe Goretzka need to be tried as a defensive midfielder. He will obviously need to work on his tackling, but i believe he has good pace and the physicality needed for the position.
     
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  17. BVBFNM

    BVBFNM Member+

    Apr 3, 2016
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    It's why I was hoping for Rode and Weigl to be called up. Germany conceded 5 goals in the group stage, which is way too many.

    Seriously, the opposing team getting close to Germany's area is all it takes for Germany to concede.
     
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  18. Shwass5555

    Shwass5555 Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Nov 21, 2022
    Rode is 32 and I don't think Flick is fan, Weigl is an interesting option. However, I still don't see Flick going for a pure "destroyer" which is why I think Goretzka could work as a hybrid defensive midfield(but again needs to work on his tackling).


    Sammer ruled himself out to replace Bierhoff. Fredi Bobic is the front runner for now it seems.

    Ballack was asked if he would be interested and he said he would be happy to consider it but needs the role to be defined better (The role probably needs to be broken up into 2 ).
     
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  19. suedwest

    suedwest Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Nov 23, 2022
    #1044 suedwest, Dec 7, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2022
    Flick definitely shot himself in the foot with player nominations and selections, but the more concerning issue is his struggle with decisiveness, especially when things aren't going as planned.

    JP - Got out-thought in substitutions, seriously underestimated threat, hesitated then panicked with just throwing forwards on with no midfield left.
    SP - Got dominated initially, again opposition substituted first and got ahead. Then waited another 15' to put on Plan B that worked.
    CR - Somehow still went with Plan A, somewhat changed his mind at HT but so did the opposition. Conceding already on the cards with midfield withdrawn again. It's CR after all and individual talent rescued it, rest is history.

    This is really not a good picture. Whether he doesn't trust himself or the players, result is the same.

    Style-wise what Flick wants to do is understandable, but once things go south you can't help but feel someone like Tuchel is more pragmatic and decisive. With Tuchel it'll really come down to the quality of the players but we may yet discover the deficiencies are way deeper than just tactics.
     
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  20. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Namibia
    Not sure what are the qualifications of the likes of lothar matthaus to take over?

    At least Per is involved in a relevant role in club football, though hard to see why he'd shift to DFB

    Sammer held a director of football type role at Bayern until he had to step down for personal reasons - a much stronger pick IMO.

    Ballack? What are his qualifications?

    It feels like these positions get offered to ex-players who have zero experience in the role?
     
  21. suedwest

    suedwest Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Nov 23, 2022
    For all that Lothar talks he is short on qualifications. Ballack probably even more so, plus you get the feeling he's never really forgotten the way he was sorted out in 2010.
     
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  22. BVBFNM

    BVBFNM Member+

    Apr 3, 2016
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Mertesacker seems like the best choice IMO, as he already has experience in that sort of job, and Sammer left his role at Bayern due to health concerns and was advised by doctors to avoid stressful jobs, which pretty much rules him out.
     
  23. BVBFNM

    BVBFNM Member+

    Apr 3, 2016
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    My thoughts exactly on Matthäus. All he does is give statements to media outlets. How does having an opinion make qualify you for the job?
     
  24. Germanyfan1993

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jun 17, 2018
    Who do you guys see as the new defending back line for Germany? Also when do we see new friendlies for the national team?
     
  25. Alex C

    Alex C Member+

    Oct 27, 2015
    Chatham
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Right now we don’t have a ton of great options beyond the CB’s that made the squad. If Flick stays I doubt Hummels will get recalled although it’s possible I guess. Will be interesting to track Bella-Kotchap’s development, he’s someone with potential to become a starter in the future I think.

    In terms of FB’s I certainly hope that Klostermann can have a strong ruckrunde and establish himself as the NT RB, no more CB’s playing there. Other than that you’re looking at Baku, Henrichs or possibly Weiser. LB I think it’s a case of Raum, Gunter or Gosens as the other options like Netz, Katterbach etc are too young/inexperienced atm.

    In goal I want to see ter Stegen take over as no.1 for the next few matches.

    I believe the next NT friendlies will be in March.
     
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