WC First Road Trip of 2013:Houston, Chivas, San Jose

Discussion in 'Vancouver Whitecaps' started by dehun, Mar 14, 2013.

  1. dehun

    dehun Member

    Oct 19, 2011
    Vancouver
    Club:
    Vancouver Whitecaps
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    This article from Russel Berrisford prompted me to start this thread:

    http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2013/03/14/still-plenty-to-prove-for-the-whitecaps/

    I agree with Berrisford that how the WC play away from BC place this year may well give us an indication of how far this team has come, and imo, may tell us how successful they'll be late season and even into the post-season. This road-trip gives them a stern test against two strong teams (Houston & San Jose) who play different styles, and a team (Chivas) that I think the WC should beat, with their current line-up.

    Imo, the WC new-found pace may be the element that pushes them beyond 3 wins on the road this year. Last year, as Berrisford mentions, they defended like crazy away from home, and hoped to come away with a tie or a 1-0 win. This year, speedsters like Mattocks, Hurtado, Manneh and midfielder slike Kobayshi, Reo-Coker and an improved Koffie will give them the ability to counterattack much better than ever before. Having watched the first two home games, I predict that Mattocks will be at his best away from home this year--or at least until he finds his place in a more possession-oriented game--and that Huratado and Manneh will see more minutes on the road.

    What do you think?
     
  2. ixadvent

    ixadvent Member

    Dec 8, 2011
    Club:
    Whitecaps
    Watching the caps' was depressing despite the goal scored by mattocks. It felt like caps 2011 was back. They threw away their quick passes and played tactically to Houston's advantage. Route 1 long ball to Mattocks was exactly why Dynamo was pressing the caps tighter, last night everyone looked very slow and could not win any 50/50.

    The two goals conceded was pretty pathetic, Barnes goal was a nice set up by the Dynamo, but on the flipside it was poor marking by defender. Why was Hurtado the one challenging Barnes for the header? And people were bashing how awful Hurtado's defending capability? THey got to realize why Hurtado was there in teh first place, it was because the Caps all night was inviting the pressure to come to them.
     
  3. dehun

    dehun Member

    Oct 19, 2011
    Vancouver
    Club:
    Vancouver Whitecaps
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Hurtado should never have had to defend those balls in the first place. Where were O'Bien and Rusin? They should have been down low cutting out those balls.
     
  4. ixadvent

    ixadvent Member

    Dec 8, 2011
    Club:
    Whitecaps
    Agreeing with Russell Berrisford's article after the game: http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2013/03/24/mixed-bag-for-the-whitecaps/

    Cannon should have dealt with both of the goals. On both occasions the ball was flying into the six yard box. Cannon just needed to step out of the line and snatch it with his hand. But he waited on the line as the ball flies into goal. Not to also mention his punches pretty much gives the fans heart attacks.

    Would like to see Camilo and Knighton in XI next week.
     
  5. sportie1

    sportie1 Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    its time for the Caps to invest in a better goalie-- they should have cap space due to de merit's long-term injury and have 2-3 players under the 30 roster allotment

    i like cannon-- he gives u 100% and is a good team guy-- but he is a major concern not only to the fans, but also to his own defence-- his timing to come out, his punching of the ball and his ability to kick are less than average and not up to MLS standards if a team wants to raise the bar-- its very distracting to the defence; and if the best Knighton can be is #2, what is that supposed to tell us

    i thought i saw a cam shot of rennie after joe kicked a ball out of bounds-- MR closed his eyes and he wasnt pleased-- he has to be talking with the FO about a better goalie... just my guess-- but it is the next upgrade the caps need

    and i dont blame hurtado for reacting too slowly on both houston goals-- where were our experienced defenders??? OB- the leader on defence- should never have left hurtado in that position during corner kicks
     
  6. dehun

    dehun Member

    Oct 19, 2011
    Vancouver
    Club:
    Vancouver Whitecaps
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I'd like to see Knighton in as well. I've always preferred his presence in the box to Cannon's. Camilo's free kick was fantastic--very unlucky not to score. BTW, that's the second time in consecutive weeks that the WC have hit the post twice on the same play from a dead ball situation. The other one I'm thinking of was Rusin's header against that hit the post twice and the keeper in the face. At some point, those are going to start going in.

    I was disappointed in NRC's performance as captain. Didn't have the jump that Miller did when he wore the armband.

    Chivas up next. They seem to be an improved side from last year (if you discount their first one against Columbus).
     
  7. ixadvent

    ixadvent Member

    Dec 8, 2011
    Club:
    Whitecaps
    Well moving on to next weekend, Chivas is enjoying their form coming out of two very convincing results. I don't think the Caps have written anyone off, but we definitely need to improve from Houston's performance. Does anyone know if Miller will be back with the squad by next week? Even so, the toll for Miller would be too much to be starting against Chivas.

    As i said before, would love to see Camillo and Knighton start the matches in place of Hurtado and Cannon. Erik has been impressive offensively, he is built, strong and quick, its a nightmare to mark this guy coming off the bench in late games. He would need to have his confidence up and fire shots one-touch earlier. Camilo in contrast will give the team some experience, at a still young age, 25 this year, he already has 2 full MLS season experience and I'm convinced that he has worked hard to crack Rennie's XI and deserve the start and possibly open his account this season.

    Cannon, well like dehun mentioned, I would love the presence that Knighton brings. His aggressiveness and GK instinct would have dealt with the two Houston goals a lot differently than Cannon. Knowing Cannon is a great guy off the pitch and a great team player, but we really need to give our younger GK a chance.
     
  8. dehun

    dehun Member

    Oct 19, 2011
    Vancouver
    Club:
    Vancouver Whitecaps
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I thought this article in Prost Amerika was bang-on in rating the WC players against Chivas:

    http://www.prostamerika.com/2013/03/25/whitecaps-player-ratings-vs-houston/78994

    If they address the issues brought up here, I think they should do well against Chivas, who play three at the back.

    One thing baffles me: It seems no matter who they put on the back line, or who's coaching the team, the WC continue to have defending set pieces as their Achilles heel (?)

    I was disappointed with NRC's comments after the game about finishing. While he has a point, I don't think it's a good precedent for him to set--criticizing the play of other players when he himself wasn't exactly stellar. A bit too Robson-esque for my liking.
     
  9. dehun

    dehun Member

    Oct 19, 2011
    Vancouver
    Club:
    Vancouver Whitecaps
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Here's the line-up I'd like to see on Saturday against Chivas (4-3-3 or 4-4-2, however you want to look at it):

    ------------------Knighton-----------------------
    Lee--------O'Brien---------Rusin---------Rochat
    ------------------Davidson---------------------
    Reo-Coker-----------------------Koffie----------
    ------------------Kobayashi---------------------
    Mattocks-------------------------Camilo--------

    2nd half energy subs: Miller, Hurtado (Camillo, Mattocks)
    2nd half shut-down sub: Watson (Kobayashi)

    I like this line-up (even though Rennie's yet to start Koba in the #10 role) because it gives us the best of all possible worlds:
    • 4-3-3 for the attack, with some combination of Mattocks/Camilo supported by NRC/Koffie/Lee/Rochat, with Koba acting as field marshall
    • 4-4-2 for the defence--a compact midfield, with opposing attackers having to run the gauntlet of some combination of twin pitbulls NRC/Koffie, and then Davidson--regardless whether they come through the centre or the wings--before they even get to the back four. But with Kobayashi at the head of the Diamond mid, the possibility of a counter that springs Mattocks/Camilo, supported by the aforementioned is always a very real--and dangerous--possibility.
    • Knighton gives us a more intimidating presence and assurance on set-pieces, and his distribution is far better than Cannon's.
    • For the subs, what can be worse for the last 20-30 mins of a game if you're a tired defender than having to deal with Kenny Miller doing his best impersonation of the Tasmanian Devil, and Hurtado trying to prove he can beat Mattocks' in a 50-yard sprint?
     
  10. sportie1

    sportie1 Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    i think NRC was really upset that mattocks didnt pass the ball to him when darren had his break-away-- NRC ran a long way to get into that spot just to the right of darren and had an easy tap-in if only mattocks had have slipped him the ball- but that would have taken a left-footed pass and i'm not sure that mattocks can do much with his leftie-- i'm very sure that NRC was yelling at him to slip it over, but mattocks took the shot at glory -- -2-0 and the game was probably won-- it would have been a great team-building move by darren, but he is an individual and needs to see more than himself if he is to develop to a higher level
     
  11. whitecapfever

    whitecapfever New Member

    Oct 22, 2011
    Club:
    Vancouver Whitecaps
    How does Chivas still exist? Their attendance is embarrassing.
     
  12. dehun

    dehun Member

    Oct 19, 2011
    Vancouver
    Club:
    Vancouver Whitecaps
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Even more embarrassing: a team no one goes to see was made to look good by a WC team that couldn't connect three passes for most of the game. Awful.
     
  13. ixadvent

    ixadvent Member

    Dec 8, 2011
    Club:
    Whitecaps
    Chivas game more or less like Houston was very depressing to watch. like Dehun mentioned how they couldnt even connect passes, its due to the style of play.

    Rennie is deploying a stylish brand of football with 4-3-3 formation which plays possession football. But the downfall is failing to realize that your most creative mid-fielder (Daigo) is placed to the wing and your source of possession passing is heavily based on the two center backs and JMD whom sits in front of them. Bad news is that for two games in a row, opposition puts a ton of pressure onto our back four while caps were in possession which forces them to give away the possession by going "route 1" long balls. It also made our midfield unnoticeable for the very same reason.

    While Mattock's confidence level is still high going into the season, he needs to put less pressure on himself and play. Few weak lob attempts on Kennedy was not acceptable, Mattocks gotta take his chance without hesitation, which has been hindering his goal account this season so far. His beauty against Houston proves that he needs to shoot with instinct without HESITATION.
     
  14. dehun

    dehun Member

    Oct 19, 2011
    Vancouver
    Club:
    Vancouver Whitecaps
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I have to think the main problem at the moment for the WC is tactical, and that comes down to Rennie. Imo, he needs to realize the following:
    1. Mattocks is not a target forward, and his talents are wasted when he's employed holding up the ball. He should be played within a formation that allows him to make diagonal runs across and through the opponent's back line, where he can pick up passes on the run and finish like he did against Houston. Most of the goals he's scored have been ones like that.
    2. Kobayashi is the key to both the WC possession play and service to forwards. Playing him out wide, and encouraging him to move to the centre when he can/wants to, means he spends time on the wings and wears himself out moving between the positions. When he has the ball on the wing, his options are limited, and opponents can easily isolate him--his strength is clever passes on the graound, not crosses from the wing. We saw that isolation a few times against Chivas, but it's happened every other game so far as well. Most of the WC goals this season have come from--or through--Kobayashi when he's been in the middle, with the ball at his feet. He holds the ball up far better than any of the WC forwards, and is the best passer on the team. He needs to be told to stay central, and given licence to move the ball as he sees fit. That way, he can dictate the flow of games. If Rennie doesn't do that, the WC will struggle to score goals, and their possession/passing play will continue suffer.
    3. On a team full of young players, and veterans who have not played much together (some of whom--like NRC and Koba, arguably--aren't even fully game fit), it's foolish to base the team's style on free-flowing football, based on positional-interchange. Far better to give players clearly defined positional roles first, have them play those roles, let the chemistry and interplay develop, and then encourage them to become more free-flowing when they've attained a level of comfort. Don't believe me? That's how (with some luck, granted) Montreal won their first four games, and why TFC occasionally now looks respectable. The coaches of both those teams have given players clear roles and positions to play. We've seen that when the WC play in close proximity to one another (as against Columbus), the passing and possession are wonderful. But against Chivas, the forward-charging of the left and right backs, and the constant interchange between the six midfield players served only to pull players regularly out of position and passing range from one another, isolating them as easy targets for an active Chivas mf, and often exposing Davidson and the centre backs. Good decisions come from player fitness, but also from a clear understanding of team play--in othr words the positional play of all the other players around you. Until the WC are all mature enough, comfortable within MLS, and know each other well enough, encouraging free-flowing football will only lead to chaos, and frustrating performances like the one against Chivas.
    The last two games have shown me that Rennie himself still has a bit to learn as a coach. Honestly, I'm surprised by his mistakes, imo they're fairly basic. I hope he learns quickly, and has an open enough mind to deploy his players based on their individual and collective strengths, not a rigid, pre-concieved plan.
     
  15. black_jack71

    black_jack71 New Member

    Feb 24, 2013
    Club:
    Vancouver Whitecaps
    Anyone know if the starting 11 against San Jose is because of injuries or just a shake up from Rennie? No Koffie and no Mattocks, but rather Teibert and Hertzog...
     
  16. sportie1

    sportie1 Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    sending a not-too-subtle message to the pair-- DONT COAST-- both show an attitude that if they have 1 good game, they can relax -- they both lack consistency game after game and the understanding what a good professional footballer is and continuing to develop their skills to make them a better player

    both are too ego-centric IMO
     
  17. dehun

    dehun Member

    Oct 19, 2011
    Vancouver
    Club:
    Vancouver Whitecaps
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Mattocks, OK, but Koffie too ego centric? What colour was the sky in your world this morning?

    It was still blue on this planet (Earth), the planet where Koffie isn't egocentric, but a young player who has played hard even when other piss-poor players and a lousy coach (1st year, mainly) couldn't remove their digits, and through the new coach learning the ropes in MLS (a process that still continues imo) decided to change the formation and much of the team through last year, and now can't seem to understand what everyone else who's kicked a ball can see--that a player like Kobayashi should be in the middle of the park, and that Reo-Coker's MF partner should be Koffie, not Teibert. Through all that change and turmoil, Koffie's started most of the games for the WC, and has had less off ones than most other players on the squad--not once complaining about a thing. In fact, o all this turmoil, and occasional idiotic rumours that he'll be sold to the highest bidder somewhere in Europe, his response was to sign a 5-year contract extension and take out Canadian permanent residency, saying he was happy here in Vancouver--never once giving credence to the aforesaid rumours that he'll head to Europe for a big-money payout (unless the WC sells him for its own Piotr Nowakian reasons).

    Wow. Koffie....... ego-centric. I'm headed outside to check for locusts and boiling seas, just in case my above rant was off-base.
     
  18. black_jack71

    black_jack71 New Member

    Feb 24, 2013
    Club:
    Vancouver Whitecaps
    Totally agree on Koffie. The guy has been an absoutely ideal professional player and person for the WC. Sometimes it seems that the WC don't realize what they have with Koffie, he is a player who is seemingly totally commited to Vancouver, it's so rare these days to have young players as talented as Gershon that want to hang around with a team like the WC rather than go to Europe. He has the talent to do so if he wants to, I sincerely hope that the WC smarten up and do everything they can to facilitate him staying for the long haul (the extension and citizenship is a start!).

    Also, as good as Davidson has been for us while he has been here, I think it's time for a Koffie/NRC partnership as the defensive mids in our 4-2-3-1. It would allow us to get that one extra attacking player in there rather than having Koffie play more advanced. This team has the potential to score a boat load of goals and I think that that one more player with an attacking mindset will push them over the top offensively.
     
  19. sportie1

    sportie1 Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    by ego-centric regarding koffie, i will clarify so u dont tar and feather me-- his pattern has been to play inconsistent football-- he does some things very well and then for whatever reason, he seems to sluff off and not continue to push himself-- does he get overconfident too easily?? too easily to be self-impressed?? until he becomes a consistent player that uses his talents every game, he will come across as a player who has wonderful potential, but does not apply himself consistently to demonstrate it-- even more so with mattocks

    a main criteria i use to evaluate a professional is by how he performs game in-game out and that is where koffie really comes up short... and only he can fix it-- the benching vs SJ was deserved-- now how will he respond?? he's not a rookie any longer so its time he matured into a better professional player- he needs to light a fire under his arse every game and consistently show us what he can give to his team

    he needs to learn from tremendous professionals like lee, OB, rochat and de merit who give 100% every game
     
  20. dehun

    dehun Member

    Oct 19, 2011
    Vancouver
    Club:
    Vancouver Whitecaps
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I agree with the inconsistency bit. I think that's normal for most young players, though, with a few exceptions. What causes youth to equal inconsistency probably varies player to player. You may be right about Koffie's reasons. I think he's level-headed enough, though, to even out eventually. The fact he's settling into Vancouver and Canada is a good thing for that, I think. I also like Rennie's carrot/stick approach. There has to be a taste of hard reality at times to keep him motivated.
     
  21. dehun

    dehun Member

    Oct 19, 2011
    Vancouver
    Club:
    Vancouver Whitecaps
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
  22. ixadvent

    ixadvent Member

    Dec 8, 2011
    Club:
    Whitecaps
    WOuld just like to point out that the caps has scored atleast a goal a game so thats one huge positive.
     
  23. sportie1

    sportie1 Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    got to say that this was the best game i have seen joe cannon play for the caps-- only missed- by a country mile-- 1 punch out-- the rest of the game, he was terrific and showed a lot of courage diving for the ball with on-rushing chivas players and coming out for high crosses and catching-- even his kicking was quite good
     
  24. MeMeMeMeMe

    MeMeMeMeMe New Member

    Apr 29, 2013
    Club:
    Whitecaps
    Well, after the Dallas game I hope you are done with your praise of Cannon. Your player evaluations are so off the mark it is laughable. I think you should keep with the NHL and not try to join real football analysis.
     
  25. black_jack71

    black_jack71 New Member

    Feb 24, 2013
    Club:
    Vancouver Whitecaps
    Oh you mean like the analysis that you offer to this forum. Just trolling every thread moaning about sportie1's posts. We are here to offer our own personal opinion and analysis of each game and other Whitecap topics, not just single out a contributor and make pointless and irritating posts. If you don't want to see people offering an opinion about the Whitecaps then don't come to a Whitecaps forum, rather simple really.
     

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