PBP: WC 2010 Semi Final - Deutschland gg. Spanien 07.07.2010 [R]

I don't know if I should be offended or feel glad.

First of all, why is it that pure football talk is seen as know it all? I certainly don't see it that way. A lot of the posters here are either American or aren't as informed of football outside their zones so a lot of things are misinterpreted or misunderstood and it's worthwhile to point it out through discourse for the sake of discourse. I don't interact much because I don't share much of the same humor as most people here, nor do I think we have similar interests, music, movies, etc from what I get the hint of, so I'd rather keep it at football. Unless of course a moment of comedy is so inspired.

 

Here are the main reasons Spain won:

1) Tiki Taka style - possession, possession, possession. The opposition can't score if they can't get the ball. And when they do, their so exhausted that they make bad decisions or execute poorly. Miro Klose said just that in the post game interviews. Stats showed that the Germans ran, on average, 1.4 miles more than the Spaniards did.

2) And here is a real big key - Spain totally pressured the ball, as well as closed down passing lanes, as soon as the Germans got possession. The Germans had so many errant passes, and couldn't get on track, exactly because of this. Schweini, Keidera, and Ozil had nowhere to go. Mueller would have helped, by spreading things out with his speed and constant running. But still, Spain played the perfect tactical match with it's high pressure. Notice that in the Argentina and England games, Schweini, Keidera, and Ozil had lots of space to operate. Same in the Australia match. Also, against Serbia and Ghana, they were again highly pressured, and the result is a loss and a win by the skin of their teeth.

3) Spain moves up and down the field as a unit, and everyone continues to move (into open space when they have the ball, and closing down space when they don't). When Spain doesn't have the ball, the defend as a unit, and defend (pressure) immediately when they lose possession, and try to get possession back as soon as possible. When they have the ball, the off the ball movement is both constant and elegant, like a finely tuned orchestra.

Really, when Spain are on their game, they are nearly invincible. That said, both the Swiss and the Americans managed upsets. Also, Inter managed to beat Barca (whose players form the core of Spain).

So how did they do it? It wasn't just parking the bus. I don't know the secret formula, but I think it's mostly trying to deny Xavi and Iniesta the ball. Those two are the conductors of the Tiki Taka orchestra. You choke them off, and the orchestra suddenly is off tune, and they become beatable.

Obviously, Jogi either didn't realize this, or they simply couldn't execute the "choke off Xavi and Iniesta" tactics, due to exhaustion. But it did seem that both Xavi and Iniesta had plenty of service and time. It seemed like Schweini and Keidera laid off in more of a zonal defense. Thus the result.

I remember when the USA upset Spain in the Confed cup last year. I remember distinctly that Bradley and (I think) Clark pretty much spent the whole match ghosting Xavi and Iniesta. Spain still dominated possession, and did create chances. But they were continually frustrated on attack, and left themselves open to the counter.

The same thing happened when Inter beat Barca. Again, I remember Xavi and Iniesta were constantly hounded by the likes of Cambiasso and Zenetti.

I'm thinking the Bert van Marvijk knows all of this. In the final, I'm expecting van Bommel and de Jong to be draped all over Xavi and Iniesta most of the game.

Unfortunately, it appears that Jogi didn't take this tactic.

 

The secret really is more simple in theory but incredibly difficult in execution. It's to basically not allow them to be comfortable. I think Bob Bradley said the same last summer. They pressed hard in midfield and this didn't allow Iniesta and Xavi to control the ball and tempo.

Also every single player is an excellent passer and they have those threats from every area on the field. Pique is world class at this. His forward runs and some of his passes during this match were astonishing. That also mean every single player needs to press every single one of their players, and not allow them the space and time to operate in.

Quite frankly I don't see the Dutch choking their space as well because that's simply not their nature so we might see an open match after all.

 

No doubt, it's much easier said than done.

And yes, Xavi and Iniesta are not the only excellent passers. All of Spain are good passers. But Xavi and Iniesta are the fulcrum, or the hub, while the others are spokes.

 

Iniesta didnt play both legs vs Inter and Xavi was the only creative outlet.

Inter bunkered in the game at Nou Camp and was able to qualify

 

I think that's far too simplistic an assessment. Iniesta or not, Barca had an insane amount of possession and played their natural game. Inter didn't just bunker because that suggests they can't do anything else. Mourinho's plan was to encourage Barcelona to keep possession and just absorb it. That's a risky tactic but he had the right players to do it, and he did.

 

I couldn't remember whether or not Iniesta was in both those games. Inter definitely bunkered, but they also choked off Xavi.

But besides that, the more I've been thinking about it since my first post, the more I've been realizing how badly Germany was missing Thomas Mueller, and not just his goals and assists.

In my first post I mentioned how Spain immediately pressured the ball, and closed down passing lanes, when Germany got the ball. Well, that is just where a player like Mueller is a Godsend. In my opinion, Mueller's greatest quality is his runs. When Germany (or Bayern) have the ball, Mueller is always making a run, either down the flank, or a diagonal run, or somewhere into space, either receiving the ball because he's open (and then a breakaway ensues), or taking a marker (defender) or two along with him opening up space for Schweini and Ozil.

Trochowski didn't do that at all. He remained compact and static, allowing the Spanish defenders and midfielders to close down space rather easily. And on the other side, Poldoski didn't make that many runs.

 

Jogi made the conscious decision to ignore it in favor of his prefered method of defense.

Jogi likes tha have 2 rows of four defenders in compact lines across the final third of the field. His players are instructed to mark zones as opposed to men, force the ball out wide and avaoid fouling. Because his defensive system requires positional discipline you will never see a player man-marked out of the game like Inter did to Xavi and Iniesta.

One of the major reasons Loew likes this tactic is that it minimizes your mistakes and gives you the best possible chance to take maximum advantage of your opponent's mistakes. Because your players are all in their proper positions when the ball is won, it is easy to break forward at pace into empty space behind the opposing full backs. Hard direct runners like Podolski and Mueller are integral to such a formation for their workrate and willingness to bomb forward the instant possesion is won.

This strategy has some strengths and some weaknesses:

Strengths:

1. Focussing on defending zones, and staying in a compact shape compensates for players who are not the world's best individual defenders. This allows even average players, like Mertesacker, to play effectively and covers up their short commings, which would be greatly exposed in a man marking scheme. Merte does not have the necessary speed to recover if he is man marking and is pulled forward by an intellegent run (leaving space behind him).

2. The other major stregnth is that it mostly forces your opponent to attack using high crosses from the wings, because attacking through the congested center is extremely difficult. This is something where big strong defenders like Mertesacker and Friedrich are very difficult to overcome.

3. Counter attacks are always organized and deadly because you can easily switch to the attack and will have options on either wing to expose your opponent. Unfortunately on Wednesday our right wing never threatened on the counter leaving Spain with an easier time defending by overloading the left side of their defense when we countered.

Weaknesses:

1. The defensive system is inherently passive and relies on your opponent making mistakes. This will work against most teams, but a team as skilled in passing and movement as Spain will not surrender possession so easily.

2. Players become tired quickly if they cannot win the ball back. By winning the ball and quickly countering you tire your opponent's defense as they have to race back to cover the wholes that will develope as they push forward to find the breakthrough. Unfortunately this is quite difficult when your opponent plays a mistake free offensive game.

Overall I think Germany's defensive performance was increadible against Spain. We held them to ONE scoring chance from open play until very late in the match when we were pushing forward desperately in search of the equalizer. More composure on the ball when in possession and better use of width during counters could have paid off dramatically. Looking back this was not such a poor match from the German team. Defensively we executed the gameplan flawlessly, but our counters were easily dealt with due to their one-dimensional nature, and the players were not composed when in possession (nervs, exhaustion, etc.).

 

I think Jogi's biggest failure tactically was not having a set plan of action to equalize if we failed to score first. Every time he made substitutions during the tournament is severly disrupted our ryhtm. We were in the ascendency just prior to removing Khedira for Gomez. This change completely destroyed the previous shape of our midfield, and we looked totally disorganized afterword.

Personally I would have pulled Trochowski out. Moved Oezil the right flank and put Kroos in Oezil's position behind the striker.

 

Really, really good analysis.

Germany did hold Spain to one true scoring opportunity, and the one goal on a set piece (where the zone kinda broke down). And the game plan would have worked better with some better composure and execution, and if they had Mueller to open up space.

 

You know, before the match I jokingly said this will be another Frings/Italy 2006 situation and although I'm not sure how effective he would have been in turning a match, it would have been more close in our control would he have played and provided a balance we didn't have.

Throughout most of the match, our attacks came from the left because Mueller didn't play and Trochowski didn't offer what he did but also because Lahm was pinned back as a result. Furthermore, Capdevilla is their obvious weakness and we didn't threaten it once. Mueller would have gotten past him. He would also have provided off the ball movement and allowed Oezil and Klose an outlet upfront, and instead we got an isolated Klose and a lazy Podolski who has just as much brain power as Trochowski.

 

I would have started Kroos from the get-go. He is more clever, more skillful, and faster than Trochowski. But I think Jogi went with the safer, more known quantity in Trochowski.

 

Dont get me started on trochowski.


But to address your point on the last page about serbia and ghana. I felt that if we had 11 men all game against serbia we might have learnt how to play this type of pressing better.

 

So much over the top reasoning to justify Germany's heartless and passionless game in front of Spain. This whole fascination with thye idea that Spain cannot be stopped and so on should seriously stop because it is becoming laughable. In every sport they are dominant champions but they also manage to lose once in a while and nobody tends to give them more credit than they deserve. All the German fans here have become obsessed with the whole "Spain is too perfect to lose" mentra that it is getting rediculous; as rediculous as English and Argentina fans claiming the German side to be average and just having a bad day hence their loss

Germany didnt have enough guts to go and give Spain trouble. Who cares about Sportmanship or beautiful soccer? If somebody is so concerned with playing beutiful soccer or being a sportsman they should go play in their local league. You come to world cup to win at all costs not to be a nice guy

Spain is good and all but so what? If you cant match them for talent then play dirty. Provoke their players, make few hard tackles to make them cautious or nervous, bunker or do whatever it takes. The aim is to win. Anything else is just pure crap for the commentators to talk about

Italy and Germany used to be like that. Thanks to Loew's constant orgasm over "beautiful football" and how "Spain is so good" they are losing that attitude and instead becoming a ambassador for one touch pass and sportsmanship. Untill the last decade winning the cup was the goal for Germany. Now it's about reaching semi-final and losing to "great" teams and soon it will be hoping to reach quarter finals

Italy in 2008 and Inter in 2010 are prime examples of how you can destroy the flow of the talented teams if you are willing to do anything it takes rather than playing attractive football

 

Possesion is not what Iniesta offers he offers a lot of creativity, In his place was Seydou keita, I dont need to tell anyone the difference Iniesta would have made in the midfield attacking wise over Seydou keita.

In the game, Xavi was the only creative outlet that can release Messi and co in attack.

 

Are you actually arguing that Iniesta would have made a difference? I don't think he would have. That Inter side was built on that day to deal with all facets of Barca's attacking, no matter who played because they all follow the same philosophy. It was simply a matter of countering their tactic with the same amount of efficiency and perfect execution and they did.

 

I only want to clarify, that what I posted was my honest to god opinion. I think people expect too much, and I don't see the current players as a championship winning team (not that I think my predictions are of octopus-like quality, or that some new players couldn't change the situation).

I tend to post confrontational for the sake of it and use hyperbole freely, if I think the quality discussion isn't terribly serious - but the core of my posts always reflects my opinion (the only difference to NSR is that the regular posters there know what part I'm serious about). I wouldn't do so if I thought there was a serious discussion going on in a thread (by no means I mean that no poster in here posted something good, just that the thread in general seemed to go nowhere already).

What this forum needs is (at least) one strictly moderated no off-topic, no pictures, just serious posts thread (like they have in the USMNT N&A forum - that's one hell of an acronym). That's up to the mods of course, they have all the work here.

 

So Alex, what will you be after when they win euro2012?

 

They have 30 threads per topic!!!

Threads after a US friendly...
The defense
the midfield
the forwards
how did so and so play
no one likes us
fire bradley
fire bradley again
why no Adu
is gooch better
what if this
what if that
what if this again
where do we go from here
where are we
the team and the media
the team and the media abroad
a new nickname for the Nats
a new nickname for Landycakes
who can we beat
who can't we beat




No thanks. We have a few threads with good info and when they get slow we kind of tend to hang around a little bit just shooting the shit. If we get of topic a bit, so what. Once something serious happens again we are right back on track.

 

They won't . Seriously - while I'm not a big fan of international football I actually like to see Germany do well (I hate the average fan, but that's beside the point ). I wouldn't hate being wrong with that prediction, however unlikely I think a win would be right now.

 

tbh this team I think has a much better chance than the 06-08 brigade did.

They are more talented on a basic level, with more depth of that sort of talent. They played this tournament far away from home and kicked some big teams' ass with convincing displays. They got out of the group of death (2nd hardest if not), and then the two big teams...

The problem was that Spain is a big bogey team mentally. In two years' time I see this being much less of an issue. For one thing, the guys who lost in 08, and that was the really bad loss, are not going to be as influential in 2012 or beyond.

 

They also have an entire forum with more regular posters than all of the European boards combined. A single all-purpose thread would be somewhat different. Everyone who just wants the last news could go there, and ther rest of the board could go on as usual, if that's what the majority wants.

 

I get the feeling you are more annoyed with a few particular posters rather than the random talk that happens on and off in a game thread. That alone is a good break from the games, but some people go overboard with what they say (per post and by number of posts) and some of the material posted (or the manner of it's articulation)

 

It is impossible to keep up. Whenever anyone has a question, they simply open up a thread.

How is Jones?
Where is Jones?
How come Jones is not ready?
Where will he play?
Best midfield formation EVER for 2010!!!

I mean it is crazy in there. The worst part is that so many threads are opened and then the person opening the thread is long gone by page two as he is already opening up another topic of discussion, this time, on "so and so".

People have no idea what is going on because they have the same exact argument going on in so many different threads.

 

I'm probably ten times more pessimistic than you and I'm extremely hopeful of this German side. I mean historically, this side is breaking a nearly 2 decade old pattern, completely changing perception of German football and the young players are offering something we've not seen in what feels like ages. The sky is the limit from here on. Germans are smart, it's not like the DFB and co. will shoot itself in the foot and stall the last six plus years of development.

The U.S. forum however is mostly inhabited by nutcases and ignorant fanboys. Also, this is an American forum, so it's expected that they have larger numbers. Also, doesn't the U.S. have the most amount of internet usage in the world? Most people spend nearly all their time on the computer. All that stuff over there is not organized, it's just pure chaos, no integrity, just wild decadence.