"The National Museum of Iraq recorded a history of civilizations that began to flourish in the fertile plains of Mesopotamia more than 7,000 years ago. But once American troops entered Baghdad in sufficient force to topple President Saddam Hussein's government this week, it took only 48 hours for the museum to be destroyed, with at least 50,000 artifacts carried away by looters." http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/12/i...00&en=c3c8f350bec5ac0d&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE "The museum's deputy director said looters had taken or destroyed 170,000 items of antiquity dating back thousands of years. " "Treasures at the museum date back 5,000 years to the dawn of civilisation in Mesopotamia, as Iraq was once known. Iraq's history stretches back thousands of years It houses items from ancient Babylon and Nineveh, Sumerian statues, Assyrian reliefs and 5,000-year-old tablets bearing some of the earliest known writing. " http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2942449.stm "Before the war, the museum closed its doors and secretly placed the most precious artifacts in a storeroom that has been ravaged by looters. The museum worker says everything in the storeroom was taken." http://www.wlox.com/Global/story.asp?S=1229339 I'm so disgusted. 1000 years from now, nobody will remember George W. Bush or Saddam, but they would have been able to study and enjoy these artifacts.
Re: Re: Was the war worth it? Good God. This might be an even dumber comment than the time you said our freedoms were outdated.
Precisely Ben. My Mother had the good fortune to be able to study and work in that area of the world and has passed the fascination onto me. So many people learn and know about Ancient Greece/Rome/Egypt. Relatively few expand their horizons to Babylon etc. (for example, did anyone know that mathematics was invented over there?) And now unfortunately they may never have the chance. I don't give a toss about those nicking Sony trinitron TVs, or fridges hell, even those nicking incubators pale in comparison (IMO) to those taking and inevitably damaging/destroying items that simply cannot be replaced. I've seen the damage that looters have done in Egypt - looters don't know shit.
Per usual, this is the wrong question to ask. Certainly now. While it is reprehensible that these treasures have been looted -- I won't say "stolen" because this is not thievery in the traditional sense -- here are some things to keep in mind: --You can't assume that this stuff is "gone forever." Some of it, maybe even most of it, will surely turn up. It will have to, because it's only worth something if someone will buy it. Will some of it get damage?? Surely. --Should we obviate our own ability to execute our foreign and miltary policy because, say, archeological artifacts will get stolen in the aftermath of conflict ?? THIS question admits of its own answer. --While "things" are important, individual freedom and liberty are even MORE important. Right now, there's lawlessness and anarchy because the constabulatory apparatus is gone, certain criminal elements are bound to leap into the breach, and certain folks fear for their economic situation. This will calm down eventually.
most of the problem seems to stem from the orders pertaining to which areas the troops have been located to prevent looting..these are according to the washingtonpost.com as follows. however some people think the problem being as soon as troops start using their weapons to police iraqi looters you're going to have another shitestorm on your hands. the line is so very thin. this comes down to the responsibilities of the iraqi people to police their own behavior. something they have failed at in levels behind belief. i don't believe this was an expected evil coming days after the toppoling of the regime otherwise you wouldn't see us scrambling to send a police force over there. of course mahar abdallah saw this coming he just decided not to tell anyone the troops turing into police can and will create a potential quagmyre of sorts. no more tears tcamahoney.
Many of these artifacts have been destroyed. Gone forever. Hopefully, many others will be recovered. As for freedom and liberty. I'd give mine up to prevent, say, the British Museum from being destroyed. There were things in the museum that predated the birth of Abraham. They managed to survive all these years until George W. Bush came along. Why didn't we protect the museum? How could we be so negligent? I'm in a state of shock.
Hmm. I wonder what Ben Franklin would say. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain the British Museum deserve neither liberty nor the British Museum." Artifacts Yes!! Freedom No!!
I was hoping to have a little freedom to loot businesses around the White House today, but they closed off all the damn streets. Anti-freedom bastards!!!
As the infamous Mr.Cam stated in his response to my bringing up this issue - 'It'll turn up in London soon enough' Whilst that may be true, as Karl says, people surely stole this stuff for profiteering purposes, there is no way that most of the looted items will not be damaged beyond repair. I have just seen a news report and it looked like a few more than a couple of pots had been broken. It really was a gut-wrenching sight. I had to turn over. It also turns out that, at this particular museum, the museum directors had safely stored away the most precious items in the safe-room of the museum. The safe-room was also looted but theere were no signs of the big metal bar door having been forced. This only meant that someone who had the key at the museum, let them in. Now that wrankles.
How noble of you to offer to lay down your life for the British Museum. Let's cable Tony Blair. Meanwhile, it's George BUSH's fault that a crazed out of control mob acted in a wretched anarchic fashion?? In other words, THEY are not responsible for THEIR actions, while George Bush IS??? Or perhaps you would like to engage in an endless string of IFs...you know, IF we didn't do this, and IF we didn't do that, and on and on, ad nauseam. Of course, some will ALWAYS believe, that everything that has happened, is happening, and WILL happen, is ALL our fault. Some, I think, would just like the United States to just evaporate. Whatever you do, don't strain your mental ligaments engaging in the twisted non-logic that you, and so many others like you, seem to revel in.
It was his liberty he was willing to lay down, not his life - I know some like to intrinsically link the two. And what does Tony have to do with it? That's the point, it isn't about the here and now - it's about the dim-distant past being available to those in the dim-distant future. 5 minute politicians and squabbles don't matter a jot in this scheme of things.
Yeeesh...the Blair reference was a joke. No one disputes that the looting of these artifacts is awful. But I am sorry, in the end, they are THINGs. Things, no matter how ancient, and how valuable, aren't as important as spirit, soul, and freedom. And we can't let the RISK of THINGs being damaged, lost, or stolen, stand in the way the human spirit's desire to be free.
Sorry, find it difficult to tell. What with quality like that. Ok, but why are those things apparently mutually exclusive?
Add it to the list of unquantifiable costs for this war. It literally makes my stomach turn. Such a waste.
It should've been considered just as important. Especially with all the lip service our gov't has been spewing WRT the great historic cultures of Mesopotamia in an attempt to win the "hearts and minds" of Iraqi people. We are saying one thing, and doing another. I don't care if someone nicks a chair from a gov't office. I expect a certain amount of anarchy in this situation. But we couldn't spare an infantry company (probably only need a platoon) to guard the only truly priceless items in Iraq? Power stations are important, but those can be rebuilt. This makes me almost as angry as when the Taliban shelled those giant statues of Buddha. I was literally livid, and totally in shock watching the video.
Got that right!!! Tear down those FENCES around LAFAYATTE PARK. I want to be FREE to break a few windows and break into the National Portrait Gallery to LIBERATE a few musty old paintings and other THINGS!!!
They are as important as spirit, soul, and freedom, because they are a vital part of spirit, soul, and freedom. Would you be OK with the Smithsonian being looted? We would lose so many artifiacts that are immutably a part of being culturally American. Have you ever stood in the Forum in Rome? Did you know Mussolini wanted to destroy the old Emperor's Palace? I've walked amongst ancient temples, trod down the same hallways emperors trod, stood in the Senate chamber. It's awe-inspiring. They are only things, but they are not only things. They are symbols. Much like the World Trade Center, or the Washington Monument, or Statue of Liberty. They may not mean something (or the same thing) to everybody, but they mean something to some people. Well then, the gov't preventing me from stealing the Declaration of Independence is standing in the way of my spirit's desire to be free. Can I count on your help in fighting the good fight?
It says a lot about George Bush, and possibly about Americans as a whole that we made sure the oil wells were fine. That was more important.
OK, it's just a detail, but to me, it's a pretty stupid detail to miss. I mean, you've been planning this war for a year and a half, somebody at some time should have made protecting this museum an objective. I put this in the same category as the tragedy at the checkpoint that killed 10. It was only AFTER that incident that we put up signs in Arabic. Stuff like that makes you question our competence. I don't want to go overboard here. These are just details. But they're mistakes nonetheless. And yes, dammit, we're responsible. I had little doubt there would be widespread looting. It was mentioned several times that I read/saw that this would happen. Denying US responsibility is taking conservative philosophy of personal responsibility to Jonestown koolaid type levels.
i think the liberation of the people iof iraq is worth it, to answer the question posed in the thread title.
In this particular case it can be strongly argued that liberating the Iraqi people should have included protecting the most invaluable artifacts representing their ancient culture/cultures. To have not done so is disturbing. I remain very optimistic about the future of Iraq, but it seems they may have lost many very vital pieces of their past in the process. What's done is done now. However, it will be a terrible loss if these relics don't ever turn back up, or even if a SMALL percentage of them never turn up again.
Would you destroy the Pyramids to bring Jeffersonian democracy to Egypt? I wouldn't. The human race is much poorer today than it was a few days ago. As for "liberation," let's hope so. We've liberated the Oil Ministry. "Baghdad's Iraq National Museum, looted in the city's post-Saddam Hussein chaos, was home to one of the world's great collections of antiquities. Much was lost, though it is not known exactly what was taken; the museum's holdings included: Thousands of inscribed clay tablets, many of them dealing with literary, mathematical, administrative and legal matters. Among them are some of the oldest examples of human writing , and Hammurabi's Code, one of mankind's earliest codes of law. Artifacts from Ur, the city that was the birthplace of the patriarch Abraham, according to the Bible. Among them: the Ram in the Thicket, a statue representing a deity from 2600 B.C., and items found in what were believed to be royal graves from that same era golden cups, weapons, jewelry, elaborate instruments and the first narrative image of battle. The copper head of an Akkadian king, at least 4,300 years old, its features mutilated apparently by vengeful subjects. A cult vase from the ancient city of Uruk a large and ornate alabaster flower pot, three feet tall, which offers the first image of human interaction with a god. Estimated age: 5,000 years. "