Was Maradona Overrated

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Lincon18762, Dec 12, 2022.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Napoli was close to the league title in the years before Maradona came (not in 1983-84 no, with the injured star players). The main difference is there was more money and now Allodi/Moggi as sporting directors.

    Bagni had a great solo goal against AC Milan in 1986. One might actually think Maradona doesn't have something similar in all those Serie A years for the club Napoli.

    Of course Maradona was the better player and ratings are often crap, but if you look at Sofascore, then you'll see Careca was #2 of this World Cup, Fernando De Napoli by a small margin the best for Italy (0.08 ahead of Collovatti joined Napoli in the summer of 1986) and with Bagni as 4th of Italy (just 0.05 behind number two). If you take into account he was subbed out early in the South Korea game, he is number two of Italy.

    Or to put it different: Italy 1986 has 14 rated players in the database, and the two Napoli players end up in the top four (1st and 4th - without sub probably 2nd - both Napoli players forming the top two for Italy).

    Then subsequently, Napoli became champions in 1987 with 70% of the maximum points. That is really the lowest total between the early 60s and 1998. With Maradona, but also with De Napoli and Bagni as help, yes.

    I am not talking about the 1990 title here.
     
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  2. Kroos46

    Kroos46 Member

    Juventus
    Italy
    Jun 6, 2023
    It's true, Napoli was about to win a few years earlier but because the team had a winning leader like Ruud Krol. As I said before, sometimes it's not just a technical issue but also a mental issue, elite players transmit the winning mentality and manage to bring out the best in their teammates. After Krol, Napoli had a difficult couple of years and even with Maradona they didn't have a great placing in the table (although it was said to be his best season at Napoli ever). Then it's true, Napoli has spent a lot, invested and built a tough team but in fact no one is capable of winning alone. As I wrote before, regarding Maradona it is the narration of his victories that is absolutely excessive but I do not agree that he was not the main architect of Napoli's victories and I do not share the thought that Napoli would have won even without him. He could have won without him but only if he had had another epochal phenomenon in the team, for example Platini in his best moment or Matthaus.
     
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  3. Praasen

    Praasen Member

    Mohun bagan
    Argentina
    Jan 8, 2023
    How many trophies did krol win with napoli?just saying..and i am not going into any stupid arguments of pears to apples to oranges.
     
  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I think it is possible in 1987, not 1990 (won on the last day).

    In 1987 many Serie A players and stars were in a down-form (age, post-World Cup) and it was before a new generation arrived. The points total was, as said, quite low. The already well-rated Italy players (in sofascore) that played for Napoli seemed to have been in an even better form and shape.

    Indeed, with orange colors on I'd say Krol would have liked it to play in that 1986-87 Napoli team (surely a better and richer one as what he played for), or the 1993-94 version of Gullit for that matter. The 1991-92 version of Scifo (3rd in Serie A, UEFA Cup finalist - and who was the sporting director there?)
     
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  5. Kroos46

    Kroos46 Member

    Juventus
    Italy
    Jun 6, 2023
    The fact that Krol didn't win doesn't mean he didn't significantly improve Napoli's performance. He was the best player in the championship twice in a row and led Napoli to third and fourth place, despite being at the end of his career and with a team that in my opinion was inferior to the one with which Maradona won. Then every season has a different story, Maradona won his first championship with a lower average points and against a rival at the end of the cycle. For every Napoli fan, Sarri's team was stronger than Spalletti's, yet with the latter he won the scudetto but this happened because Sarri had a Juventus team that was too strong as a rival while Spalletti had no rivals up to par (this is just a example).
     
  6. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024




    I saw All the whole matches ...of Ruud Gullit ....in 1991/92 Serie A Calcio



    Gullit Ruud


    26 matches .... 7 goals .... 10 assists .... ( Best Provider Assister with Van Basten aswell 10 assists .... Transfer Markt .. computed 1 assist more + to Van Basten but it is wrong ...)


    6 pre-assists ....



    For me .... Ruud Gullit .in this season ...

    was the second best player in the World ... or Rijkaard to be fair



    Gullit against Denmark 1992 played very well .... in semi-finals ...


    at extra-time ... with Long Legs ... almost ...he did one goal there ..

    but the central defender from Denmark saved in the line of the Goal ...
     
  7. Kroos46

    Kroos46 Member

    Juventus
    Italy
    Jun 6, 2023
    I agree and by not doing it voluntarily, I think I answered you too with the answer just given to @Praasen
     
  8. Al Gabiru

    Al Gabiru Member

    Jan 28, 2020
    Maradona was a good defender for his position and did a lot of defensive covering.
     
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  9. Praasen

    Praasen Member

    Mohun bagan
    Argentina
    Jan 8, 2023
    So based on one league season we should judge players who played professional footbal for 20 odd seasons in their lives..great method indeed.by the way pasarella himself was a great player and a double world cup winner(once as skipper).
    Talking about pele,toninho outscored the great man i think more than once in a season.toninho was a forward ofcourse but can we conclude toninho > pele or atleast toninho = pele?
     
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  10. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024




    i'll do it ... one video at You Tube ... of Michel Platini ... with dribbling skills hahahaha


    games ..that i'll choose to show has the whole Games in Ina.Fr ... Archive National from France Of images ...


    Hambourg 1977
    West Germany 1977
    BRazil 1977
    Rep Of Ireland 1977
    Bulgaria 1977
    BUlgaria 1977
    Brazil 1978
    USA 1979
    Bayern Munich 1979
    Bordeaux
    Netherlands 1980
    Sweden 1980
    Greece 1980
    USA 1979
    Napoli 1984 ...


    etc,,,, etc ...
     
  11. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    How did FC Barcelona achieve a
    higher points total without Diego Maradona in La liga 1984/85 then they ever did with Diego Maradona in La liga 1982/83 and 1983/84?
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982–83_La_Liga
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983–84_La_Liga
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984–85_La_Liga

    Why did Diego Maradona never play one single game in the Copa libertadores in his career playing for Boca juniors and Argentinos juniors?
    https://conmebollibertadores.com/ca...-libertadores-legacy-despite-never-featuring#

    how did Boca juniors win the Copa libertadores few years before Maradona joined their club in 1978?
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_Copa_Libertadores_finals

    how did argentinos juniors win the Copa libertadores some years after Diego Maradona left their club in 1985?
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_Copa_Libertadores_finals

    if we talk about World Cups…
    Argentina 1978 was a World Cup winning team with a player of the same level as Diego Maradona.
    Mario Kempes with very arguably the greatest final performance of them all


    Maradona walked into a winning culture and he arguably didn’t improve on it
    He never took Argentina to the next level(ie dominance)
    Yeah He won a World Cup with a stunning performance
    Argentina already saw that(you can argue about the merits of Kempes 78 vs Maradona 86 and it’s not an open shut case for me)


    Maradona made a WC final In 1990
    Granted Argentina never repeated this feat again until 2014 but they did win the Copa America twice in the early 1990s.
    I don’t think reaching a World Cup final(especially in the manner of Argentina 1990 via penalty shootouts etc) is markedly more impressive than winning two consecutive Copa Americas in 1991 and 1993.



    If he was the greatest natural born winner/leader of them all then why did victory almost always seem to escape him except in very few cases?

    And even in those very few cases there are still question marks
    Was he clearly head and shoulders above his teammates in his first scudetto win?
    Was he the most influential in the 1988/89 UEFA Cup win?

    No questions about WC1986 of course(his influence and general play was superlative)
    But even then would he have made the 1986 SF(let alone final) if he had not blatantly cheated.
    Would he?

    if it goes to penalty shootouts would maradona definitely score vs Shilton?

    Did he score four years later at the exact same stage?

    https://www.transfermarkt.com/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/928078

    questions
    with the exception of perhaps Serie A 1989/90 there are question marks linked to basically every positive he achieved in the game.
     
  12. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024



    Toninho Guerreiro ...was one greatest centerforward ... highly underrated for the people ...


    i saw him playing whole game s... he was better than Roberto Dinamite ... for example



    in the same level of Sandor Kocsis ... Careca Antonio .... Vavá ... Ademir de Menezes .... Florian Albert .... Coutinho ... Pagão .... Paolo Rossi ....



    Toninho Guerreiro .. played too much for Santos FC ... and São Paulo FC ... a Genius Player ..but underrated ..always ....
     
  13. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024




    yes ... i've spoken ..this World Cup 1986 ... and ... 1986/87 .. excellent numbers ... until there




    later ... 1987/88


    I saw whole matches against Ac Milan ... ..... Ac Milan ... 4 x 1 Napoli ... Napoli 2 x 3 Ac Milan ... here was lesser already ... in defensive job ...
     
  14. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    If Napoli didn't spent that money on Maradona, then they would spent on another world class player such as Zico for example. As you said, no one wins alone and the fact that Kroll didn't won reinforces it. Maradona didn't won for example at Barça and Barça did better right before him joining and right after he left. Of course they used the money that they earned with his revenue and buy players on positions that were weak, but the point remains.
     
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  15. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Your answer is in your question


    I would be comfortable in discussing the merits of toninho the forward outscoring Pele if you are comfortable in discussing passarella the defender outscoring(per 90) Diego maradona?
     
  16. Praasen

    Praasen Member

    Mohun bagan
    Argentina
    Jan 8, 2023
    Third and fourth place,,thumbs up for that.during maradona's time napoli won twice,was two times runner up, another one time 3rd placed.add two copa italias and a uefa cup.in fact in 1987-88 napoli should have won another scudetto till it was stolen from them with fixing.it was a shame.however i think krol also won a couple of uefa cups with them,,didn't he?
     
  17. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024












     
  18. Praasen

    Praasen Member

    Mohun bagan
    Argentina
    Jan 8, 2023
    One copa italia and once runner up..sorry
     
  19. Praasen

    Praasen Member

    Mohun bagan
    Argentina
    Jan 8, 2023
    I would be comfotable too because i find nothing to discuss there.lol
     
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  20. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Tell me more about this player

    I was researching him some years ago but hit a brick wall(language barrier)
     
  21. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024







    maybe better than Van Basten as well ....

    But i like too Toninho Guerreiro as well ,...
     
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  22. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
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  23. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Do you have accurate statistics for at least goals/games?
     
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  24. Praasen

    Praasen Member

    Mohun bagan
    Argentina
    Jan 8, 2023
    Are you flighting?
     
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  25. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024



    reminds me about Careca Antonio of Napoles ...
     
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