Beckenbauer is literally praised because he is very complete and has incredible offensive skills being complete defensively and offensively, he's the exception not the rule
.................. well, an artist's place is to paint beautiful artistic pictures, certainly not in high-performance and in high-level Professional Football . for sure in FreeStyle Championship 2 there you will find..players like Jay Jay Okocha, Ronaldinho Gaucho, Denilson show, Djalminha and Robinho pedaladas for sure... hahahaha I disagree with you.. about Gerd Muller in some matches he demonstrated great technical gestures too.
Paul Breitner “Gerd Müller was the greatest genius I have witnessed in football." “Without the goals of Gerd Müller FC Bayern would not be what it is today. We would still have a wooden hut at the training ground." Franz beckenbaur the lol guy transformed a wooden hut into a European juggernaut. And Beckenbauer was no defender that is one of the biggest myths ever the perception we have of a defender in the modern era is simply not what he was. His role(libero) is extinct now anyways I’d say he was more of a midfielder with great defensive qualities than a defender with playmaking capabilities.
Like I said Beckenbauer wasn't a pure defender, and Gerd is a genius due his off ball ability and finishing who made him ver decisive
Exactly. And that's why making arguments about players purely on offensive stats, specially players that they haven't seen play, is such a silly argument. And when you consider that midfielders can be shut out of stats b/c they may not score or get the assist, then they won't show up on the stat sheets at all. Its silly. I saw Diego play. I saw just about every player from his era to now, and by far Diego was the player with the most raw talent and was able to achieve the greatest hights of pure football performances. To argue in 2024 "Was Diego overrated?" is such a Gen Z football fanboy argument. It belongs on video games or youtube comment section. Can't be taken serious by people that have decades of watching the game.
Yes, he is overrated (GOAT candidate - its bullshit) because of his charisma and behavior. Top-3 peak (after Pele and Messi), top-3 prime and top-4 career at best.
Peak Maradona being outperformed by 2 Napoli players when he won the first Napoli scudetto in 86/87 "But, but, he carried Napoli on his own for their first title in their history"
Best players from Napoli on the UEFA Cup 88/89 title run as per Gazzetta Dello Sport: Careca 6,72 Francini 6,68 Giuliani 6,64 Renica/Maradona 6,50 But, but, Maradona "singlehandedly" made Napoli great...
I have seen all the UEFA Cup games of 1988-89 myself and would say Careca was in better shape yes. If you exclude the penalties and/or set-piece assists he was also more consequential. The final itself is very dodgy, with those handballs. Stuttgart manager Arie Haan was gracious enough to say Napoli was the better (and wealthier) team but did have a sour taste in his mouth (interesting that Klinsmann speaks here very warm about Haan). The 1986-87 campaign was a post World Cup campaign. In those days players could fall off for a year. We saw the same after 1974, after 1994 and after 1990 with the Milan players (in 1989-90 fighting for the title until the last day, coppa italia finalist, European Cup finalist, supercups - then also the World Cup and the Italian Milan players playing seven games + the drilling sergeant Sacchi). Maradona had over 120 shots and 7 open play goals in the Serie A. I wouldn't say myself Bagni played categorically better than him - that is taking it too far. Napoli became champion but with an enormously low points total (relative to total points possible). The famous Rummenigge video where he says Maradona played in Europe and Pele didn't - I find that poor reasoning. The better variant is saying Pelé played and compared against European cohorts damaged and scarred by the war (or never played against them precisely because of that - talents never coming to fruition because of the war). Pelé became by most accounts less dominant and less obvious as world #1 player after around 1965. But that is precisely the time when the European babyboomers entered the scene (Beckenbauer, Best, Cruijff etc.). Some of those are also scarred by the war though. I think something along those lines is better reasoning. Regardless, when forced to make a choice it is either Pele and Messi as top two for me or Pelé alongside, say, eight others. Not just three.
In my point of view, Messi is tied with C. Ronaldo in therms of greatness since Ronaldo won 5 CLs, 1 euro and 6 league titles as the most standout player on his teams while Messi won 1 WC, 1 Copa, 3 CLs and 7 league titles as the most standout player on his teams
Roberto Baggio isn’t an overrated player and based on quality Neymar had potential to be a top 5 player in history.
There is some background for this, I see. General overview: https://www.stuttgarter-zeitung.de/...rde.24c7d096-4157-49d0-abee-b36aa30fa9d0.html Arie Haan in 2005: Have you already called your former student Jürgen Klinsmann? No, the last time we saw each other was last season at a VfB Stuttgart Bundesliga game, but why do you ask? Because you have a special relationship with Klinsmann. But now I'm curious. In a way, it was you who gave Jürgen Klinsmann the idea of becoming national coach How did you get that? Klinsmann said that he received a newspaper article faxed to California in which you raised the question: Why doesn't Jürgen Klinsmann intervene? I remember. At that time, there was almost a hopeless debate in Germany about who would be the national coach. No one was found. Many people were being considered, even Lothar Matthäus was mentioned. Suddenly a newspaper asked me how I was finding the search. I said: Why don't you think about Jürgen Klinsmann? Was that a favor for a friend? Not at all. If you know the constellation with Völler as team manager and a coach at his side, Klinsmann can do that too. I said that with Klinsmann you would have someone at the top of German football who the whole world knows. What makes Klinsmann predestined for this position? He's someone who has ideas, and when he does something, he goes all out. And then things got rolling. Then Berti Vogts went over there and talked to him a bit. You were Klinsmann's coach in Stuttgart. What makes him special? Whatever he tackles, he does it 100 percent. Even as a player, but people in Germany came to this conclusion relatively late. Even as a player, he was a little egocentric. He is a guy who shares the work, but he steers things in a direction that he thinks is right, that he is absolutely convinced of. And nobody can dissuade him from that direction. Klinsmann was successful as a player not only in Stuttgart and Munich, but also in Italy, France and England. How is he viewed in Holland? Very positive. [...] What is the basis for this special rivalry? To put it bluntly: it's because of the war. Holland lost a lot of Jews because of the war. And Holland had a lot of them, especially in Amsterdam. Everyone had something to do with it back then. In the west of our country, the rivalry is on a bigger scale than on the border with Germany. I was born near the border myself, in the province of Groningen. But in the west you can sense that the antipathy is still there today. https://www.tagesspiegel.de/sport/fussballerisch-waren-wir-immer-besser-1247920.html ------- Klinsmann in a column: You need to be surrounded by people who can help, whether that is family, coaches or otherwise, and I was very lucky during my time at Stuttgart. Months before we played the 1989 UEFA Cup final against Napoli and Diego Maradona, my coach Arie Haan said the time was right for me to join Inter. I did not understand because we were playing well and had full stadiums, but he said to go where the best in the world were and, at the time, that meant Italy. He basically pushed me out of my hometown team, but for my own good. https://www.espn.co.uk/football/sto...aaland-others-show-why-scoring-goals-such-fun As I wrote in my last column, my coach Arie Haan told me I should go to Inter in 1989, but that was two years after the club denied a bid to sign me. https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_...nd-others-transfer-decisions-risk-calculation Thought this might be interesting! Although slightly off subject (but related to Maradona his achievements)
Gazzetta dello Sport Rating Best Foreigners Average 1982/83 to 1986/87 Maradona: 6.64 Passarella: 6.61 Junior: 6.57 Dirceu: 6.48 Cerezo: 6.47 Platini: 6.44 Brady: 6.43 Briegel: 6.41 Edinho: 6.35 Francis: 6.40 Wilkins: 6.31 Boniek: 6.28 Rummenigge: 6.25 Guerin Sportivo Best Foreign Players-Serie A 1983/84 Platini: 6.84 Zico: 6.77 1984/85: Maradona: 7 Platini: 6.49 Zico: 6.40 Guerin Sportivo Average 1980 to 1988 6,69 Maradona 6,68 Falcão 6,54 Júnior 6,53 Platini 6,46 Krol 6,43 Barbadillo 6,41 Passarella 6,40 Toninho Cerezo 6,38 Brady, Dirceu 6,32 Francis 6,30 Boniek, Edinho, Briegel 6,26 Elkjaer 6,23 Berggreen 6,20 R. Díaz 6,15 Bertoni 6,02 M. Laudrup
Best player in the American continent in 1981 Organized by El Gráfico, France Football mentions it as the equivalent of the European Ballon d'Or, with a similar voting system. Maradona: 485 pts Zico: 292 pts Fillol: 120 pts Pelé votes: 1-Falcao 2-Zico 3-Maradona 4-Sócrates 5-Fillol Zico votes: 1-Maradona 2-Sócrates 3-Reinaldo 4-Pasarella 5-Junior
The Viveza liars - the group that assault journalists with a chainsaw - think: just try it again? I have already 'proved' how old Krol has effectively the same rating as Maradona. Both Napoli, both captain.
It's not that he had the same grades. He had BETTER grades Best league campaigns on Serie A as per DBS Calcio: Liedholm 58/59 7.33 Liedholm 56/57 7.31 L. Buffon 59/60 7.30 Zoff 71/72 7.17 Riva 69/70 7.14 L. Buffon 60/61 7.08 Juliano 70/71 7.06 Juliano 68/69 7.05 Liedholm 59/60 7.05 Botelho 56/57 7.05 Bugatti 57/58 7.02 Sala 76/77 6.96 Krol 80/81 6.93 Gullit 93/94 6.92 Filippi 77/78 6.92 Sala 75/76 6.91 Maradona 84/85 6.90
Highest Goal contribution statistics by individual players on Serie A winning teams To qualify a player must have directly contributed to a minimum of 30% of his teams goals This will be without the black magic/dark arts(ie including what I like and excluding what I dislike) Roberto Mancini in Serie A 1990/91 Team:Sampdoria 12 goals+18 assists in 2562 minutes 57 team goals 1.06 goals+assists per 90 53% goal contribution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990–91_Serie_A https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/rob.../liga/0/wettbewerb//pos/0/trainer_id/0/plus/1 https://breakingthelines.com/historical/the-sweetest-scudetto-of-them-all-sampdorias-1990-91-season/ Marco Van basten in Serie A 1991/92 Team:Milan 25 goals+11 assists in 2665 minutes 74 team goals 1.22 goals+assists per 90 49% direct goal contribution https://www.transfermarkt.com/marco...71/saison/1991/wettbewerb/IT1/sort/wettbewerb https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991–92_Serie_A Alessandro Del piero in Serie A 1997/98 Team:Juventus 21 goals+12 assists in 2779 minutes 67 team goals 1.07 goals+assists per 90 49% direct goal contribution https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/ale...daten/spieler/4289/saison/1997/wettbewerb/IT1 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997–98_Serie_A Cristiano Ronaldo in Serie A 2019/20 Team:juventus 31 goals+6 assists in 2919 minutes 76 team goals 1.14 goals+assists per 90 49% direct goal contribution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019–20_Serie_A https://www.transfermarkt.com/cristiano-ronaldo/leistungsdaten/spieler/8198/saison/2019 Diego Maradona in Serie A 1989/90 Team:Napoli 16 goals+11 assists in 2381 minutes 57 team goals 1.02 goals+assists per 90 47% direct goal contribution https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/diego-maradona/leistungsdaten/spieler/8024/plus/0?saison=1989 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989–90_Serie_A Ruud gullit in Serie A 1987/88 Team:Milan 9 goals+10 assists in 2402 minutes 41 team goals 0.71 goals+assists per 90 46% direct goal contribution https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/ruud-gullit/leistungsdaten/spieler/101045/saison/1987/wettbewerb/EM https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987–88_Serie_A Zlatan ibrahimovic in Serie A 2008/09 Team:inter 25 goals+7 assists in 3136 minutes 70 team goals 0.92 goals+ assists per 90 46% direct goal contribution https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/zlatan-ibrahimovic/leistungsdaten/spieler/3455/plus/0?saison=2008 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–09_Serie_A https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vFXQ0-O83mk&pp=ygUPRGVsIHBpZXJvIDk3Lzk4 David Trezeguet in Serie A 2001/02 Team:juventus 24 goals+5 assists in 2906 minutes 64 team goals 0.90 goals+assists per 90 45% direct goal contribution https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/dav...sdaten/spieler/4146/saison/2001/wettbewerb/CL https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001–02_Serie_A Cristiano Ronaldo in Serie A 2018/19 Team:juventus 21 goals+9 assists in 2689 minutes 70 team goals 1 goal+assist per 90 43% direct goal contribution https://www.transfermarkt.com/cristiano-ronaldo/leistungsdaten/spieler/8198/saison/2018/plus/1 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–19_Serie_A Andriy Shevchenko in Serie A 2003/04 24 goals+3 assists in 2687 minutes 64 team goals 0.90 goals+assists per 90 42% direct goal contribution https://www.transfermarkt.com/andri...daten/spieler/3522/saison/2003/wettbewerb/USC https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003–04_Serie_A George weah in Serie A 1995/96 Team:Milan 11 goals+13 assists in 2340 minutes 60 team goals 0.92 goals+assists per 90 40% direct goal contribution https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/george-weah/leistungsdaten/spieler/8542/saison/1995/wettbewerb/IT1 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995–96_Serie_A victor osimen in Serie A 2022/23 26 goals+5 assists in 2581 minutes 77 team goals 1.08 goals+assists per 90 40% direct goal contribution https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/victor-osimhen/leistungsdaten/spieler/401923/saison/2022/plus/1 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022–23_Serie_A Carlos tevez in Serie A 2014/15 Team:juventus 20 goals+7 assists in 2590 minutes 72 team goals 0.94 goals+assists per 90 37% direct goal contribution https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/carlos-tevez/leistungsdaten/spieler/4276/saison/2014/wettbewerb/CL https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014–15_Serie_A Diego maradona in Serie A 1986/87 Team:Napoli 10 goals+4 assists in 2568 minutes 41 team goals 0.49 goals+assists per 90 34% direct goal contribution https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/die...daten/spieler/8024/saison/1986/wettbewerb/IT1 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986–87_Serie_A Khvicha Kvaratskhelia Serie A 2022/23 Team:Napoli 12 goals+13 assists in 2539 minutes 77 team goals 0.88 goals+assists per 90 32% direct goal contribution https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/khv...ten/spieler/502670/saison/2022/wettbewerb/IT1 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022–23_Serie_A Diego Maradonas goal contribution statistics in those two scudetto wins(87 and 90)were simply not unprecedented. They were replicated during his era(mid 80s to early 90s) in the era after that(mid 90s to mid 2000s) & in the era after that ( in the 2010s and 2020s) Replicated by midfielders,by wingers,by deep lying strikers, by centre forwards and by goal getters/poachers. The ‘singlehandedly’ narrative detracts from the legendary career of Maradona in the same way the 1200+ goals of Pele does. They are great enough but these bedtime stories told for the last 30+ years really don’t help.
Ah, maybe it is also me then to apply and captured by the (double) handicap, and not only the Cox recycled opinions (the poindexters and clickbait driven echo chambers?) that note Bergkamp 2003-04 a number of times in the "big games list" and reject it, or PSV 2004-05 and does the same. Gullit isn't an as captivating and magical player you can say. After so many decades and years that can happen. There are interestingly some more Napoli players on that list. Juliano, Sala (previously at Napoli, brief), and Filippi (bought by Napoli in the summer of 1978). With the exception of Riva, it are all the outfield players from 1970 and after. Some noted here at the time (edit: I mean in Gullit his native country), and later, how Gullit was relieved from national team (except one game... more on that later in the other thread) and European football in 1993-94. But if you compare it with Maradona, he played more. More league games, more in the Coppa Italia (that Sampdoria won), Maradona didn't play for Argentina between july 1982 and may 1985. Also more exhibition games and friendlies for Sampdoria. Gullit had about 3600 official minutes on the clock, Maradona 3200 minutes in official matches, including national team. Include exhibition games and friendlies and the gap actually increases. Sampdoria finished 3rd in the league (was at times even 2nd - the 10th,13th,14th,16th,18th, 22th, 26th and 28th round). Napoli finished 8th, in a less dominant Serie A. UEFA ranking of Italy was 5th in 1984, almost equal to Belgium at 6th. It was later that Italy, by hook and by crook, won all those European cups. Sampdoria finished 6 points behind AC Milan, and didn't win the last two rounds (costing three points) or four of the five last rounds, 6 of the 8 last rounds (costing 8 points). Gullit played games on many different positions. Center-forward, second striker, midfield, defense. Had #4 as shirt number, in pre-season played games with #6 in midfield and #4 as defender. While he could now shine to a greater degree as at AC Milan, and felt more comfortable at playing every week, building rhythm, the side wasn't entirely build around him. There was still Mancini (and Samp was 'his' team), there was Platt whose game relied a lot on scoring. For example. Napoli on the other hand was entirely constructed around Maradona, certainly in the early seasons (pre-Careca, for sure). If you compare Bertoni (the 2nd foreigner at Napoli) with Platt (2nd foreigner at Sampdoria) and see what they did at international level for club and country, then Bertoni is vastly superior while Platt has done very little (especially club level, for country there is that 1990 Belgium goal). Both were in their late twenties and 27-29 years old at their respective seasons. So yes, there is a case to make Sampdoria 1993-94 counts for more as what happened with Napoli in 1984-85 (Allodi as sporting director; Moggi arrived in 1987, departed 1991-92). https://www.theguardian.com/news/1999/jun/08/guardianobituaries.brianglanville
Maradona leaned also a lot more on penalties in 1984-85... On the other hand, goals per game was lower.