Was Maradona Overrated

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Lincon18762, Dec 12, 2022.

  1. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Thanks mate: best wishes to yourself too (I hope you and Puck can resolve any tensions too, because I remember you initially said that you appreciated very much his postings about Dutch football, including about Gullit in 1985/86, and like you say everyone has slightly different perspectives about the game and the players and different preferences and favourites).

    On the bolded point, sure yes of course, and we are often talking about fine margins and players with different attributes (some having an advantage in one thing, some in another thing) and career catalogues of games and titles etc. And of course your view expressed in this next post (not re: Matthaus, but re: some other players Maradona would sometimes or often be placed ahead of by other people, and in your view not) fits that as well:
    Even in early football history there were some conflicting ideas and preferences about the value of 'go getters' as it's expressed here vs artists (of course I think me and you both see the value of both types of player, and any 'artist' is for sure only effective when he uses his skills to help the team I agree on that)
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/british-football-best-xis-1863-1939.2124483/page-7#post-42293226
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/british-football-best-xis-1863-1939.2124483/page-7#post-42295687
    I guess Matthaus would go in a modern 'go getters' team; Maradona more likely in an artists team (Pele it's difficult to make the choice maybe; Cruyff maybe artists but hard to say for sure too....). Billy Walker, who clearly values artists more I think, does say that players need to be two-sided in his comments though, so it'd be interesting to know how he'd have thought about Maradona in that respect (perhaps making an exception?)! I know that Jimmy Gordon did still appreciate players who were more on the artist/creator side too anyway: he said about Nottingham Forest winger John Robertson the following apparently:
    Nottingham Forest's Double European Cup winners Hall Of Fame (nationalfootballmuseum.com)
    “I saw a lot of Tom Finney and Stan Matthews in my time and it was very difficult to choose between the two. But when you look at what Finney and Matthews had to offer, John had a bit of both – and something extra on top.”

    I know Billy Walker did take inspiration from Tottenham of 1950/51 (not that long before he made those comments) and regarded his 1958/59 Forest team as his best one, so he was not negative about everything in modern football at the time exactly, but he did say similar things on a video I saw, but don't find now, which was a pre-season interview with him at Forest and Tommy Lawton, who was a bit more positive about modern players compared to older ones, at Notts County (it was informative to see @CristianoPuskas 's post and see exactly which players Walker had been referring to from the past)

    Anyway, not to digress too much from Matthaus and Maradona....
     
  2. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Probably best to add a link direct to the confirmed choices on that France Football Player of the Century thread (sorry to not do it earlier!), albeit @Gregoire had indeed posted the correct results on page 1 too:
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/f...ho-voted-for-who.1597402/page-5#post-28873757
    [​IMG]
     
  3. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Digressing just a little more: Walker seemingly turned a player, Billy Gray, away from being a bit more of a 'worker' to a bit more of an artist too:
    Billy Gray: Footballer whose energetic midfield scheming helped Nottingham Forest to FA Cup glory in 1959 | The Independent | The Independent
    "In 1957-58 Gray, who had just turned 30, was workmanlike as Forest consolidated their status, but it was in 1958-59 that he blossomed anew after the shrewd City Ground manager Billy Walker converted him from winger to midfield general. Meshing smoothly with the cultured wing-half Jeff Whitefoot and fellow inside-forward Johnny Quigley, he shone as a creator and scored five goals, including three penalties, during Forest's progress to the FA Cup final. At Wembley, where Forest beat Luton Town 2-1 despite losing the scorer of their first goal, Roy Dwight, to a broken leg and battling on with 10 men in those pre-substitute days, Gray was in tremendous form. He had a hand in the goal and then, having dropped deeper than usual following Dwight's injury, set up his side's second for Tommy Wilson."
     
  4. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Kaka didn't won a WC as the most standout player and when he won the scudetto, the most standout player were Shevchenko I suppose. I think you understand my point but I'll clarify again just for the sake of conscience It's not just about winning, it's about winning as the most standout player. For me, any player who has won a relevant national league, a relevant continental cup and a World Cup all as the most standout player is at Maradona's level in therms of greatness. This does not mean that this player is a top 3-5 player in history but rather that Maradona is not on that shelf.

    Regarding the Ballon d'Or winners' votes, as I said in my op, Maradona definitely has the upper hand in terms of "magic" or "aesthetics" in his game and people tend to choose that type of player 1000x over the box to box
     
    Wiliam Felipe Gracek repped this.
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    There is a random element in football and you play with 10 other players. Opponents can get sick (France, Netherlands in 2022) or suddenly miss 15 of their players (Belgium 1984), or a ravaged squad (Netherlands 2024).

    A better criticism of Maradona is not that he only won one UEFA Cup, but was in the other seasons nowhere near and often did not deliver either. It is not surrounded by a string of semi-final places, or losing to the eventual winner. All his major achievements, including the 1990 runner-up, are tied to a handball. It is also a fact journalists got intimidated and assaulted by the Naples clan. The pull of the marketing forces, the crowd pressure (Napoli had always the highest attendances) was strong.

    I think @PDG1978 has a quite balanced take.
     
  6. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I think judging by the ratings, and the way Ancelotti talks about Kaka regarding that season and in general, it seemed feasible to conclude Kaka was the most standout player for Milan in 2003/04 Serie A season at least.

    I suppose the point about 'magic' is a bit like Wiliam was alluding to, but I think that it's at least not completely unrelated to effectiveness because the most magic of plays are by definition effective too (of course sometimes players can showboat for the sake of it I suppose) and I think that the playmaker types do do plenty to aid cohesion of teams outside of scoring goals and giving assists too.

    But I suppose, just as Kaka can perhaps be regarded as top Milan player of Scudetto 03/04, and Brehme might in some respects be seen that for 88/89, it can be that a player like Bagni could be seen as more consistent and/or important to Napoil's 1986/87 Scudetto even by some people...

    Anyway, I'll finally (I think/hope) leave my feedback here on this thread.

    You're entitled to make different calls to the Ballon d'Or winners, I understand that (and see the game a different way perhaps, in valuing the box to box type players more).
     
    Isaías Silva Serafim repped this.
  7. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024




    ...............Ronaldinho Gaucho Final 27 ..... 27 matches ..... 6 goals ... 5 assists ... 1 pre-assist and ( 1 * against Auxerre French Cup Final not defined )




    1. Inter 1 x 0 Gremio ... 1999 ...............
    2. Gremio 2 x 0 Inter ....1999 ....1 goal ( free kick )
    3. Gremio 1 x 0 Inter ....1999 .... 1 goal ( nutmegs Left foot goal )
    4. Mexico 4 x 3 Brazil ..... 1999 ...... 1 assist ( low crosses )
    5. Caixas do Sul 3 x 0 Gremio 2000 ........
    6. Gremio 0 vs 0 Caixas do Sul 2000 ........
    7. PSG 1 x 2 Auxerre 2003 ....... ( 1 * not defined by Peter Gabriel dear mate hahahaha )
    8. Santos Laguna 5 x 0 Querataro Mex ........ 2015 .......
    9. Santos Laguna 3 x 0 Querataro Mex ........ 2015 ......
    10. Barcelona 0 x 1 Internacional Brasil ....... 2006 ......
    11. Barcelona 2 x 1 Arsenal ING ........... 2006 ...............
    12 ... Barcelona 0 x 3 Sevilla ESp .......... 2006 ...............
    13 ....... Betis 0 x 3 Barcelona .... 2005 ... 1 goal ( free kick ) 1 assist ( deeper pass )
    14 ..... Barcelona 1 x 2 Real Betis .... 2005 .........
    15 ....... Barcelona 3 x 0 Espanhol ...... 2006 ...... 1 assist ( crossing right foot )
    16 ...... Espanhol 0 x 1 Barcelona ....... 2006 ..... 1 assist ( normal pass to Giuly )
    17 ...... Brazil 4 x 1 Argentina ... 2005 .... 1 goal .... 1 pre-assist ..
    18 ...... Brazil 2 x 0 Germany .... 2002 .... .......
    19 ... Flamengo 0 x 0 Vasco Final Cariocão .... 2011 ...............
    20. ... Flamengo 1 x 0 Boa Vista Taça Guanabara ( first phase ) ... 1 goal ( free kick )
    21 .... Atletico Mg 3 x 0 Cruzeiro ...... 2013 .... 1 assist
    22 ...... Cruzeiro 2 x 1 Atletico MG ...... 2013 .............. 1 goal ( penalty kick )
    23 .... Cruzeiro 0 x 0 Atletico MG ..... 2014 .................
    24 .......... Olimpia 2 x 0 Atletico MG .... 2013 Libertadores ............
    25 ......... Atletico Mg 2 x 0 Olimpia ..... 2013 Libertadores .........
    26 ......... Lanus 0 x 1 Atletico Mg ...... 2013 Recopa Sudamerica .....
    27 ......... Atletico Mg 4 x 3 Lanus ARG .... 2013 Recopa Sudamerica ........











    Diego Armando Maradona ..... 14 matches ... 3 goals ... + 10 assists and + 5 pre-assists til here ! average of goals in the finals disputed .. == 1, 28, 05 % !
     
  8. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024



    average of goals + assists + pre-assists too == 1, 28 % by Diego Maradona !
     
  9. William Whitehill

    William Whitehill New Member

    Chelsea
    England
    May 11, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    CRonaldo fanboy makes sense it all checks out.
     
  10. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Said the guy who is more of a Cristiano hater than a Messi fan
     
  11. William Whitehill

    William Whitehill New Member

    Chelsea
    England
    May 11, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I admire Ronaldo’s qualities I just think he isn’t as good as he is made out to be that’s all. I think he is one of the greatest goalscorers the game has ever seen and he has been consistently world class. He just isn’t in the same universe as Pele, Messi, and Maradona that is just my opinion. Also Messi is one of my favorite players but I like Neymar more and I loved Hazard more since I’m a Chelsea fan.
     
  12. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Well, Maradona isn't in the same universe as Pelé, Cristiano and Messi imo
     
  13. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
  14. Loco

    Loco Member+

    River Plate
    Argentina
    May 1, 2005
    Miami
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Was Maradona overrated?

    No
    (says everyone that was around to see him play).

    This conversation is now over.
     
    DrScorpio and William Whitehill repped this.
  15. William Whitehill

    William Whitehill New Member

    Chelsea
    England
    May 11, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I respectfully disagree. I think he is on the same level as Pele and Maradona. I do however think Maradona can be a bit exaggerated by his fanatics but he’s in my top 3.
     
  16. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Maradona is a religion at Argentina lol and no, there are people who "was around to see him play" and says Maradona is overrated.

    Agree to disagree mate, For me it's crazy to put him ahead of players like Cristiano, Beckenbauer, Di Stefano, Cruijff and Puskás
     
    William Whitehill repped this.
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Agree for Cristiano, Johan and Di Stefano (Cristiano and Johan are tied for me and no, Cristiano playing until 55 years old will not change this).

    Less so for Beckenbauer and Puskas, although Puskas is for me the hardest to place. Of all these listed names (with Pele and Messi included).
     
    Isaías Silva Serafim repped this.
  18. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    #318 Trachta10, Jun 24, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2024
    A player's G+A average is directly proportional to his team's goal average

    [​IMG]

    The average number of goals in football changes; in the 1940s it was higher than in the 1960s, and in the 1960s it was higher than in the 1980s. Recently, the average has risen again. That means the goal average must be analyzed in the player’s context. This is not an exact science, but using G+A averages is even worse and further from the reality we are interested in knowing.


    Goal contribution including Non-Opta Assists (penalties and fks won, deflected passes/shots, own goal assists, gk and post rebounds)

    "Peak" in 10 years

    Pelé: 64%
    [​IMG]

    Maradona: 60.91%
    [​IMG]

    Messi:
    59.63%
    [​IMG]

    Zico:
    56.06%
    [​IMG]

    C.Ronaldo:
    52.64%
    [​IMG]

    Puskás:
    51.29%
    [​IMG]


    Totals
    [​IMG]
     
  19. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024
     
  20. Loco

    Loco Member+

    River Plate
    Argentina
    May 1, 2005
    Miami
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    The reason why some people have a difficult time to rate Diego is because his peak was not as long as what we see now. The players in the 80s were a different breed of players and their peaks rarely lasted as long as the players now. It was a more physical game, and the players got abused/exploited by everyone around them (clubs, managers, friends, etc). So, even though Diego's peak was not as long as say Messi, how do we rate him? How do we consider the tangibles that we look for in the "Greatest of All Time" discussion.

    To me, you have to limit to the era to when the player was active. IMO humble view, the modern era of soccer began in the early 1950s (everything before that I consider "BP" - before Pele). I thought about this a lot, and I think of the modern game as divided into three eras (1) from early 1950's to late 1970's, (2) late 1970's to end of century, and (3) year 2000 to now. Roughly about 25 years in each era. And for a bunch of reasons (which we don't need to get into here) each ear feels and looks different to me - for lots of reasons.

    So you can see what I am laying out here. The first era of the game is Pele. He was the greatest player. The second era (the moderf#ng era is what I call it) Diego was the best player by faaaar. And the third era, no surprise - you know who.

    The era when Diego played was tough. The players got the sh#t kicked out, the clubs exploited those players in ways that previously was not done, and now the players get more protection. So its not a surprise that Diego's peak wasn't as long as the players now, I don't penalize him for that. But godda@n it, you watch Diego from about 84 to 92, he was a wizard. Complete control of the pitch, undeniable field vision, and the greatest dribbler we've ever seen. Diego does not have the trophies that a lot of the guys being mentioned, but did anyone have his ability? And Diego did something truly legendary, his trophies were won almost solely by him. None of the players anyone can mention won the highest trophies available, solely by a single player. It make no sense. Every Diego game felt like a pick-up game where there is one great player dominating everyone else. That's why to argue that he was overrated is insane.

    IMO, to argue that he was overrated is either done by someone with an axe to grind or someone that does not know.
     
  21. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024






    ...... .. ............Til Here ! Right Now !

    Ranking Rate = Goals + Assists + Pre-Assists (type 1, type 2 ) + Penalties Suffered .

    Ruud Gullit 11 matches .. 6 goals .....+ 4 assists and + 1 pre-assist aswell Total = 11
    Michael Laudrup 16 matches ... 2 goals ..... + 3 assists and + 1 pre-assist aswell Total = 6
    Dennis Bergkamp 19 matches .... 1 goal ..... + 3 assists and + 4 pre-assists aswell ! + 1 penalty suffered Total = 9
    Ronaldinho Gaucho 27 matches ..... 6 goals .... + 5 assists and .... + 1 pre-assist aswell ( 1 * auxerre french cup final in 2003 ) Total = 12 participations in goals . ! ( * 13 )
    Diego Armando Maradona til here ... Total = 15 matches ... 7 goals .+.. + 10 assists and + 5 pre-assists === 1, 46 % Total = 22
    Zidane .... Final 24 matches ...... 4 goals .... 3 assists ans 7 pre-assists til here ! Total = 14
    Michel Platini Final 13 .... 13 matches ..... 9 goals ..... 3 assists .... 2 pre-assists til here ! = Total = 14

    without the Copa San Martin de Torres Tours Final in 1980 ..... 14 matches ...... 3 goals + 10 assists and + 5 pre-assists = 1, 28, 05 % ! Diego Maradona . Total = 18
    without the SuperCup Mundialito 1983 vs Flamengo .... ...... 12 matches .... 8 goals ... 3 assists ..... 2 pre-assists too ! so amazing at all .. Michel Platini this is my real idol with Gullit too and Edson Arantes Pelé .. Johan Cruyff .. Ferenc Puskas . Total = 13


    Diego Armando Maradona average of participations to the team ===== == 1, 28, 05 %
    Ruud Gullit average of participations to the team ===== == 1, 00 %
    Michael Laudrup average of participation to the team =============== 0. 37 , 05 %
    Dennis Bergkamp average of participation to the team ================= 0 . 47 , 30%
    Ronaldinho Gaucho average of participation to the team =============== 0 . 44, 44 %
    Zine.. Zidane .... average of participation to the team ================== 0. 58, 33 %
    Michel Platini average of participation to the team =============== 1. 08, 33 %


    .......... per Finals disputed for both players !



    CURRENT RANKING LIST ! Updated again .


    1. Diego Maradona == 1, 28 %
    2. Michel Platini == 1. 08 %
    3 . Ruud Gullit == 1 , 00 %
    4. Zinedine Zidane == 0 . 58 %
    5. Dennis Bergkamp == 0.47 % ( 1* penalty suffered against Torino Uefa Cup Final)
    6. Ronaldinho Gaucho == 0 . 44 % (1 * + 0. 48 % not defined *)
    7. Michael Laudrup == 0. 37 %












    Honestly .... I'm brazilian for sure ..But I'm rating Diego Maradona higher ... Diego Maradona .. has good or great averages in the most important things on the World Football



    0 . 50 % average of goals .... 0 , 35 % average of assists


    in World Cup 1986 ;
    7 matches 5 goals ... 5 assists .... 2 pre-assists ..... 27 chances created .... 11 tackles .... 13 duels won .... 55 dribbles completed ...


    for example vs Ronaldinho Gaucho in two World Cups in 2002 and 2006 disputed.

    10 matches ... 2 goals ..... 4 assists .... 1 pre-assist .... 22 chances created ;; 0 tackles .... 0 duels won .... 26 dribbles completed .
     
  22. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Best Foreign Players Serie A
    1980/81 to 1987/88


    Four Ratings Average:
    Guerin Sportivo
    Gazzetta dello Sport
    Corriere dello Sport
    Tuttosport

    (More than 50 matches)
    [​IMG]


    Less than 50 matches
    [​IMG]
     
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #323 PuckVanHeel, Jun 26, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2024
    This is carrying water to the sea (not surprised some buy into the viveza here), but this overview actually lends credence to the idea 'Maradona was overrated' even though he is undoubtedly, for me, the defining player of the 1980s as a whole.

    If you exclude 1983-84 for Ruud Krol, when he was 34-35 years old and struggling with his knees, he ends up at exactly the same grade as Maradona. Also at 6.69. While Maradona was in his prime years and a few years short of the age of 30.

    Krol was that other star foreigner and captain for Napoli (while for some reason Ramon Diaz and Dirceu trail far behind). Ramon Diaz was there in 1982-83; he is a Maradona-esque 0.49 behind. Dirceu was there in 1983-84, he is also a Maradona-esque 0.47 behind Ruud Krol.

    Krol is by a margin ahead of the spectacular goalscoring machine Passarella (who was Italian too, spoke Italian, 0.26 behind), and an even bigger margin ahead of more convential defenders Edinho (0.38) and then Van de Korput (0.52 - is this also true for Dutch publications? When playing in the Eredivisie? I very much doubt it. DBScalcio doesn't show the grades when they played both in the Eredivisie).

    I don't know how the average for prime Baresi and prime Scirea will look here, but if we just only look at Guerin Sportivo (itself an average of four publications), then Baresi has his best DBScalcio grade in 1989-90 and his best GS grade in 1989-90 as well. Baresi had there a rating of 6.59, aged 29. That is thus 0.10 below a 31-34 years old Ruud Krol and 0.33 behind Krol's best rated season (aged 31-32). For Scirea you'll get again Maradona-esque margins. And I'd say those 1989-90 ratings are also open for discussion for some cases. Baresi has by the way always named Ruud Krol as his example, but this as footnote.

    Napoli was with Krol also a few times close to the title (3rd and 4th). Napoli had of course the highest attendances. The main difference is from 1985 onward they had a certain Allodi as Sporting Director (Italian wikipedia is informative too), followed by Luciano Moggi, and more money to spend. That makes it less surprising that literally all the main achievements are linked to handballs.

    Maradona the best and greatest player of the 1980s? I'd agree with that, with 85% certainty (Platini of course fell off aged 30 and after four years in Italy). Overrated? That is a quite defensible opinion. With various facts like the European record, the points above replacement, the money spend (probably more than Milan until 1988 or 1989), etc. to back this up. If you talk about tournaments, he was not the England and Belgium Maradona or the 1986 Maradona, in all of them. The only thing he was, is a license to use a couple handballs along the road (1990 vs USSR a relatively famous one).

    It's a pity Ruud his English isn't very good (and Italian? less sure about this - he had like some other footballers a TV show but if he speaks as well Italian there as Rudi Carrell spoke German then it is still not much). I don't have particularly warm feelings for him, but foreigners will be fascinated to hear what the Amsterdammer has to say about Naples and Napoli their history. Napoli stole the title in 1990, possibly, yet we only hear about 1988 and Napoli tanking games (while Milan was already one point ahead).

    I assure you, none of this is a lie. Maradona did shoot on journalists with a rifle and did destroy cars of journalists - or let others do it - when he got a poor grade (or Careca got a poor grade). Stop all naivety please.

    @Krokko @comme @PDG1978 @Isaías Silva Serafim - I know this is carrying water under the bridge but I also know PDG is honest and genuine.




    (Italian narrator says there something about Havelange and Kissinger...)



    I am Dutch (quarter Belgian) but not 100% stupid and blind!
     
  24. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    #324 Trachta10, Jun 26, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2024
    Diego Maradona in Barcelona

    Total Goal Involvement: 63.84%

    58 Games (122 Team's goals)
    38 Goals
    23 Assists (Opta)
    6 Pre-Assists
    7 Assists (Non-Opta)

    G/A+: 1.343

    [​IMG]


    Diego Maradona in Napoli

    Total Goal Involvement: 60.82%

    259 Games (406 Team's goals)
    115 Goals
    74 Assists (Opta)
    27 Pre-Assists
    23 Assists (Non-Opta)

    [​IMG]


    Diego Maradona for Argentina NT

    Total Goal Involvement: 53.09%

    91 Games (137 Team's goals)
    34 Goals
    27 Assists (Opta)
    5 Pre-Assists
    5 Assists (Non-Opta)

    [​IMG]



    Evolution of his stats at club level during his 'prime' stage

    (including non-opta assists but not counting pre-assists since no data available for Arg Juniors)

    [​IMG]
     
    Wiliam Felipe Gracek repped this.
  25. Loco

    Loco Member+

    River Plate
    Argentina
    May 1, 2005
    Miami
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    This is why people hate math
     

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