votes please......

I think it is difficult to pick another sweeper than the emperor; commonly, we don't rate forwards with better work-rate/defense over Pelé either. You need to keep in mind how many all star teams have an imbalanced look, favoring attacking & creative capabilities. With central defenses consisting of two ball-playing types (Moore, Baresi although the latter was also a good pure CB). But without really a holding player in midfield and/or a Vogts/Schwarzenbeck type in defense I can thoroughly understand your thought.

But I agree with your basic point and it can be quite annoying at times, when watching old matches, how the emperor got away with karate kicks, handballs and other errors so easily at times. Just coldly observing and counting this, he got away with it more often as many other great defenders.

Example (1:06:10):

 

For answer you'd need to explain better your question. By the way, I don't understand how appears Taarabt in your second question.

 

I'm surprised because it's not the first time that I read such opinion, especially from Dutch. I could see him sometimes in clips and highlights and read his trajectory and I can't see how he could be rate better than Zoff, Maier, Jennings, Fillol and Croy (perhaps Viktor, Mazurkiewicz, Shilton, Hellström, Clemence and Leao).

How good was van Beveren?, I'd really appreciate opinions from non Dutch.

 

Do you understand that the perception of many goalkeepers becomes aided by the weight of their country? I honestly don't know with certainty whether Jennings was better or worse, but despite being Northern-Irish, he has the Anglosaxon media backing and cultivating his name (George Best by the way being a very similar case). At least you don't imagine fictional full games this time around. Goalkeepers, I feel, are often difficult to distinguish.

The question is very simply: why is Magico Gonzalez included in a list of great 80s players?

I wonder whether Taraabt makes it into a list of great 2010s players in the future.

 

There's an interesting development in that episode, because thanks to disclosed archives the biographer of the Orange team (series has 11 volumes) puts now much of the blame on Michels. Who wanted to get rid of the talkative and self-confident Van Beveren. However, Cruijff/Neeskens did not use their influence and developed a mild preference for Jongbloed.
A year later, in 1975, the PSV players were encouraged by their club to take control of the Orange team - which failed (Van Beveren receiving a lot of critique for the away match in Poland).
However, it is now certain that Michels never really liked Van Beveren; already expressing and communicating this as Ajax manager to the FA (the clubs were more powerful as the federation, as you know).

 

Fillol is a legend and WC winner. Van Beveren is a nobody in world football, other than your opinion, there is nothing to back up the claim that he was better than Fillol.

 

Meanwhile, what makes Fillol noticeably better than Mazurkiewicz - or Hellstrom ( http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/europa-poy.html#koy ). Peru FC has to explain this one. And I'm sure you have no real contemporary 1970s evidence or proof either.

 

May some of that have to do with the allegations that Michels did not have the mettle to stand up to his star player, depriving Jan van Beveren the chance to play at the WC?

What is your take on the allegations that Jan van Beveren was dropped due to the influence of Cruijff ?

To this day some believe that had Jan van Beveren been the man between the posts, the Dutch would have two titles under their belt.

 

That's how things go with all-star teams. How often do we not see Moore and Banks in the same team? Breitner, Beckenbauer and Vogts in the same all star teams? Baresi and Maldini? And so on. Players who played great parts of their career with each other and acted as a support, safety net and backbone for each other on the field. We see whole backline being nominated, condensed rearward to the individual mainstays. That is how things go naturally.

And yet at the very same moment other players of the fancied countries will receive a pass when they finally deal with a perceived lack of support (despite firing half of the shots off-target, like Roberto Baggio). Even going as far to claim it stands up with the best performances ever, if not better. Of course, naturally at the cost of a Hagi, Stoichkov, Boniek, Figueroa.... who face erratic support and 'weak spots' limitations all the time; or, for a moment in time, have proper depth to work with.

For similar reasons, also Hellstrom and Tomaszewski are quickly forgotten despite playing with.... which famous defenders actually?

 

A factual correction:

That Van Beveren called Neeskens and Cruijff "the kings of spain" was before that Poland game in 1975 (4:1 loss away). Not in 1974. Neeskens and Cruijff arrived a day later to the training camp because FC Barcelona did not release them and they had delay with the flight or so. The impetus for Van Beveren so make those famed words was when manager Knobel paused the training session to welcome the two new arrivals. Rinus Michels wasn't the national team manager any longer by 1975. The "kings of spain" comment did not happen before the 1974WC, for sure.

Also, contrary to popular belief, Van der Kuijlen had no personal problems with Cruijff (and Neeskens). Van der Kuijlen his biography contains the photos where Cruijff visits his house, joins him with carnival etcetera as tangible artefacts. Van der Kuijlen is however a bit shy in public appearances, and rarely makes the media, which is a main reason why this idea stays alive. But on the very rare occasions he speaks, he says he never had personal issues with Neeskens etc. If you like, you can read the biography where that all is confirmed (again), citing old newspaper reports - including photographs. The biography has also all his goals in official matches, friendlies etc. (he scored 1000 goals in his career).

By the way, the idea that Jongbloed shouldn't have been the goallie is correlated with the idea that at least 4 other goalkeeper were better than him (not only Van Beveren), and he was too inexperienced (played only 95 minutes in the national team until his first World Cup game).
I think it is difficult to pin down the culprit; Van Beveren himself was for sure a very self-confident person, willing to take the lead, and for some charismatic too. Van Beveren was born and raised in Amsterdam! Not the rural areas like the shy Van der Kuijlen.
But thanks to disclosed archives, incl. documents, correspondence and record of proceedings (some records cemented by a notary) it is now obvious that at least Michels never really liked him. First as (influential) Ajax manager (despite the fact that Ajax wanted Van Beveren), later as national team manager in 1974. And without exaggeration, why Netherlands did not win in either 1974 or 1978 has a thousandth reasons.

 

Schuster playec for Germany at Euro80, and won the tournament. Fillol is also a better keeper than Van der Sar, so that comparison is irrelevant to the claim you make.

 

You find this interesting; I guess. The biography of Van der Kuijlen cites the recorded notes of 26/08/1976 (accorded by a notary). The stance of Van Beveren (and vice versa) is clear, and cited too (agree with you here).
This is what Van der Kuijlen said to the FA board, with NT manager Zwartkruis present. I limit myself to his comments regarding Cruijff (but Neeskens is virtually the same), and translated it very precise.

Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler

"

Van der Kuijlen emphasises that his relationship with Cruijff 'has never been bad.' 'So to speak we grew up together. At the same time in the UEFA-team and nearly the same moment in the national team. After this I was away for a while, and at this moment Cruijff developed himself in a fantastic way. At the moment of my return, I still went along with him very well. That is as far as I'm concerned not a problem.'

Van der Kuijlen does see the difference between both of them. 'Cruijff is a crack, I am not. I don't want to be one either. Though I understand correctly that [PSV manager/icon] Rijvers likes to see it in a different way. And he's a little bit right, too. I should talk more in the field. Have to conduct more and provide indications. That is what PSV lacks. Van Kraaij is almost the only player.
I want to do this, but often I lack the state. I am actually too busy with myself. In the match, I mean. When I play bad, it costs me a great effort to stand out. And in between this also delivering commands? I cannot afford it. Cruijff does this and he can do it too. It never bothered me when we played together. It falls easy to him, sometimes too easy, certainly when the referee is at stake.'

"
(page 215-216)

At the end of the chapter he summarizes in one sentence: 'At hindsight I think the subject matters had especially difficulties with the attitude of Jan van Beveren. And I was loyal to Jan.'
(page 225)

Page 226 (the last page of the chapter) mentions that Cruijff wrote a brief summary when the 'Orange team of the Century' was elected in 1999. "During his lifetime, he [Cruijff] never said any bad word about Van der Kuijlen in public."

This is what he wrote, as personal summary:

'Jan van Beveren is absolutely the most elegant and the technically best goalkeeper we ever had.'

'Willy van der Kuijlen was an attacking midfielder, who is still with 311 goals the all-time topscorer of the Eredivisie. A master in dragging and turning, left or right did not bother him, just as he had in both legs a powerful shot. Willy van der Kuijlen had such a superb striking technique that he would have been famous as a free kick specialist, if he would be active today. Together with Wim Jansen I experienced Willy van der Kuijlen from the very start, because we once started our national career as inside-trio for the UEFA-team.'

You can look for the whole biography if you want.

 

It doesn't say everything about quality but Van der Sar had a combination of achievements that together draw an outstanding picture. Most noteworthy: record of clean sheets at international level (surpassed by Casillas, with a much better team/backline one might say), record of clean sheets at Champions League level (still standing) and also a domestic league clean sheets record with ManUnited in 2009 (still standing). This while wasting a few years at Fulham (where he nevertheless did well, like in 2003-04 where he had both most clean sheets and most shots saved).
I don't say, though, that he was a better goalkeeper than Fillol.

 

The question is anything but simple because it involves the assumption that his name doesn't fit around 50 randomly that are in my message. If so, before a question would be better (or at least more appropiate) that you explain why not in your opinion.

I still fail to understand why Taarabt is included in a sort of comparison there.

 

Bloody hell @Hannibal Barca, it's yersel.

The things you find when you are researching who is better out of Velibor Vasovic and Morten Olsen.