Victims of a Campaign- The Other Footy Teams Thread

Discussion in 'Arsenal' started by GunneRy, Mar 25, 2015.

  1. wanye_stirrear

    wanye_stirrear Member+

    Sep 19, 2002
    Maryland
    I’m not so sure it’s working.
     
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  2. AmericanGunner

    Sep 7, 2003
    U.S.A.
    It will be easier to win the Champions league than the league. And depending on who progresses, and where the tie is played, possibly the FA cup.
     
  3. AmericanGunner

    Sep 7, 2003
    U.S.A.
    We could end up with a league cup/CL double and no EPL or any combination of trophies that is not the EPL.

    If we only win one trophy I'd actually take the CL. Will I be upset if the one trophy is the league? Absolutely not, but I have the most doubts about it. In a one off where the stakes are high we do well, hence the special CL nights and our perfect record in it.
    However, cold winter nights in the West Midlands against a weak side? The players just want to do the bare minimum and get on the coach as soon as possible. And have to repeat that several times each weekend for the next 3 months or so.
     
  4. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    I think fellow lawyers are getting too carried away with standards of criminal and civil trials here!

    We are talking about fast track disciplinary proceedings following sports games, where competitions are largely free to create their own structures and tribunals. The EPL already has this kind of thing - see the way they review reffing decisions and sometimes overturn them - on what basis exactly? No sign of water tight proof!

    For instance, in Australia's NRL, they long had a citing system where players would be charged immediately after games and go to 'trial' within days. Sometimes represented by lawyers.

    In this situation, the accused player is clearly guilty of using some kind of slur - apparently he admits to one. We have direct and immediate witness testimony of Vini's complaint to the ref, including on video. We have the player covering his mouth to say something. Sure only Vini heard it perhaps, but any quasi judicial body is entitled to hear witnesses and prefer one to another.

    If nothing happens here it will be laughable.
     
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  5. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    The Arsenal FC
    Jun 16, 1999
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Child molestation, sexual assault, armed robbery, etc., those cases go to trial all the time with only a single witness, often without any independent corroborating evidence. Some criminal statutes will require some sort of corroborating evidence (statutory rape in some jurisdictions, for instance) but most do not. And these are just transcripts I've seen, ie., cases that actually make it to the appellate process. Think of all the similar ones that do not.
     
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  6. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    The Arsenal FC
    Jun 16, 1999
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree that eye-witness testimony in "stranger" situations is often not reliable---lots of current science backing that up. But what's your solution? Like treason, every criminal prosecution has to have at least two witnesses?
     
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  7. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    The Arsenal FC
    Jun 16, 1999
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I disagree that I was doing so. My point in referring to the standard of proof in a criminal trial was to agree with your overall point. IOW, if one witness only doesn't bar something so serious as taking someone's liberty away, then only one witness shouldn't be a bar to a disciplinary procedure for rooting out racist bullshit amongst millionaires.

    Agreed.
     
  8. Plumstead Common

    Arsenal
    Dec 27, 2024
    this is one of those discussions that is probably best not reduced to posts. I don’t think it’s a narrow issue.
     
  9. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Yes - i didn't mean you there.

    Sorry!
     
  10. ArsenalMetro

    ArsenalMetro Member+

    United States
    Aug 5, 2008
    Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    If you put me on a jury and the only evidence in a case is one person's sworn eyewitness testimony, I'm never voting "guilty." I very strongly believe in the idea that it's better to let 100 guilty men go free than to convict 1 innocent man. So I just need more, but this hypothetical is too vague to really list out what that means.

    To circle back to the Vinicius incident, that means that even though I have next to zero doubt that Prestianni racially abused him, I'm not willing to punish a player, either in-game or after, based on Vinicius's word alone. Actionable ways to address that going forward would be to implement year-long bans for proven incidents of racist (or homophobic) abuse, which would cut down on them happening just from a deterrence perspective, and adding player mics so on-field conversations can be heard by a review panel, both live and after the fact.
     
  11. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    The Arsenal FC
    Jun 16, 1999
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And not in a relevant thread, as well, agreed.
     
  12. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    I don't get why you want such high standard of proof in a sporting game
     
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  13. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    The Arsenal FC
    Jun 16, 1999
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So is it good or bad that folks like you and me rarely make it past the first few questions during voir dire. (or at least I never have---maybe I shouldn't speak for you). :D

    Yeah, I disagree that it should take that much in this instance, especially when we're not dealing with our "solo eyewitness" hypothetical.
     
  14. ArsenalMetro

    ArsenalMetro Member+

    United States
    Aug 5, 2008
    Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Too easy to exploit otherwise.

    I'm also uncomfortable with taking a person's livelihood away without a pretty high standard of evidence.
     
  15. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    The Arsenal FC
    Jun 16, 1999
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Does his contract get voided if he receives a ban?
     
  16. mebeSajid

    mebeSajid Member+

    Feb 16, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I find this discussion of the merits of witness testimony simultaneously fascinating, exhausting, and relieved that my legal career primarily revolves around paper.
     
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  17. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    The Arsenal FC
    Jun 16, 1999
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'll misquote Winston Churchill: "It's the worst system of jurisprudence....except for all the rest."
     
  18. ArsenalMetro

    ArsenalMetro Member+

    United States
    Aug 5, 2008
    Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Does he get paid during a suspension? Especially if it's a year-long one like we're all in agreement should be the type of punishment for this.
     
  19. mebeSajid

    mebeSajid Member+

    Feb 16, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    We did a mock trial for a big case last fall (ended up winning on SJ so no trial) and watching the panels deliberate absolutely shattered some of the illusions I had.
     
  20. mebeSajid

    mebeSajid Member+

    Feb 16, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Contract should specify such things and if it doesn't, they may end up in court.
     
  21. ArsenalMetro

    ArsenalMetro Member+

    United States
    Aug 5, 2008
    Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    One of my biggest takeaways from law school was that juries should be professionalized.
     
  22. mebeSajid

    mebeSajid Member+

    Feb 16, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Lots of problems with such an idea, especially in criminal cases, where the Sixth Amendment requires that juries have to be from the district where the crime was committed. Idea might be workable, if expensive, in Chicago but it absolutely wouldn't work in places where there's only a few thousand people who live in a given district.
     
  23. ArsenalMetro

    ArsenalMetro Member+

    United States
    Aug 5, 2008
    Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Oh, there are an infinite number of problems with it. Doesn't make our current jury system any less bananas.
     
  24. mebeSajid

    mebeSajid Member+

    Feb 16, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    My take is that juries are basically fine for simple fact finding such as "do you believe Mr. X or Ms. Y?"

    Where the system is bananas is when juries have to figure out stuff that's complicated.
     
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  25. CarlosKaiser

    CarlosKaiser Member+

    Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 30, 2018
    Kansas City
    Every dispute should be settled by a Trial of Seven.
     
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