I'm assuming an end state somewhere 10-20 years down the road, prior to promotion-relegation, where there is a single-table 16-team CPL playing a 32-game balanced schedule. I'm assuming that the teams will be stable and generating enough revenue to at least break even. What cities should be a part of this? In my mind, there has to be a Canada-wide footprint to the league, with teams in almost every province. But there also have to be teams close enough to each other that rivalries are possible (might be a problem out west). The cities would have to be viable for the team as well (which is why I wouldn't pick the MLS cities). Vote for 12 municipalities from the poll below, listed descending from highest population to lowest. I purposely left out Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver because I ran out of voting choices (and I included municipalities close by), but you could vote for them (or some other municipality) under "Other" and explain why they should be added. My Other is Moncton. It's a little smaller than Kelowna, but it would help the league cover a greater geographical footprint and be a natural rival for Halifax.
Every cities above 200k are eligible as stated by Paul Beirne. Top 16 in agglomeration makes sense to me
He specifically said cities but he also acknowledge regional areas. He doesn't see the GTA as 1 market that should accommodate only 1 team but multiple clubs (across both level in the long term) due to multiple municipalities & regions having enough people in them to support teams. Of course, he stresses the importance of a downtown location and the importance of having the right ownership. American League approach: The US have so many cities above 1 million that it doesn't makes sense to them to pay attention to Canadian metro areas outside of the main 3 with the NHL being the huge exception. For MLS, 1 team for the entire GTA (6.5M) is plenty enough. CPL Approach: This is how Paul Beirne sees the GTAH Toronto: 2.7M* York Region (Based in Vaughan): 1.1M Mississauga: 721k Brampton: 593k Halton Region: 548k Durham Region: 543k Hamilton: 536k KWC: 523k You could even subdivide Toronto itself just like London, Madrid, Barcelona, Milan and Paris have done. Toronto* Old Toronto: 797k North York: 672k Scarborough: 632k Etobicoke: 365k I'm not saying all the above will happen, just highlighting how he sees things differently. Whether this happens or not is another discussion I'm not willing to get in, however, this is done in less populated European countries than Canada.
It's a product of the fact that our population is concentrated in a few small areas. Over half of the Canadian population lives in the Windsor-Quebec City corridor. Add in the Fraser Valley and Calgary-Edmonton corridor and that's pretty much 2/3rds of all Canadians in three geographically (relatively) small areas. That's the conundrum we have in Canada. We need population to support our teams but can't have to many tripping over one another. Need to find some sort of balance between those two. But at least we'll never have to end up like Uruguay where 11 out of 16 of their teams are in Montivideo.
Is there a reason that a question looking for 16 cities limits choice to 12 ? Anyway, biggest cities that are not MLS markets or, indeed, part of the metropolitan area in MLS markets (ie no suburbs of Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver) selected!
I limited to 12 because I figure with 16 choices, a lot of the picks might overlap. With just 12 picks, that gives a better idea of what people might consider the core cities should be to start the league.
Another way to look at it is if all of the existing NASL, USL and PDL clubs could be convinced to migrate over to CPL, that's a league of 8 teams already: Edmonton Ottawa Victoria Burnaby Calgary Winnipeg Thunder Bay KWC If they could accept the idea of maintaining the existing talent level and slowly growing over time then the only real financial challenge would be to cover additional travel expenses (although for some of those teams travel expenses are already pretty close to what they would face in CPL because they already travel significant distances and have the US Dollar issues to deal with). Then add on some of the major missing urban centres: Hamilton, Quebec City, Halifax and Saskatoon and we'd have a 12 team league. I think 16 is a too big stretch at least over the next couple of decades. A few issues: Burnaby: Within Whitecaps sphere of influence Quebec City: History of showing very little interest in supporting professional sports KWC: A bit too close to Hamilton. Perhaps London as an alternate to KWC, but having lived there I don't get a huge vibe on their viability. Failing those three, some other possibilities (but much less viable): St. John's, Moncton, Sherbrooke, Kelowna
I have to disagree. Economics and Bettman made the Nordiques move, no the fans. The Quebec Remparts have the highest attendance of the entire CHL (13k) and they are crazy for the Rouge et Or university Football team. With nothing going on there in the summer except the Quebec Capitals (baseball - Can-Am) league drawing 2,700 on average (2nd highest), CPL would do just fine. They are the catalyst to a potential CPL Montreal team. The heat between those 2 cities is legendary. That derby is an automatic sellout.
Interesting way to look at it....just really surprised that when looking at that list your concerns were Burnaby and KW.........this just in....Thunder Bay is no guarantee to be a successful professional club drawing ~5k a match
The idea there was accepting the idea of keeping the status quo for these teams in terms of talent so that the only new revenue challenge would be expanded travel. TB Chill already gets good enough turnout to maintain its current talent level, and already travels some considerable distances. They travel as far as St. Louis which is about 1400 km. Hamilton, Ottawa are a similar distance to that, Winnipeg is closer and Saskatoon less than 100km farther. In that frame of mind I see TBC as not having any serious concerns to play in a Pan Canadian league, but again, that's a big stipulation I present. My post was really more of a thought experiment than a true proposition.
Ok....I get what you are saying......the remarkable thing (to me) is that TBC has survived, what, 17 years.....attendances are in the hundreds.....so, while this is all good, the numbers about budgets and ambitions that CPL has makes me think they are not a candidate
Reports stated that the Ottawa Fury were literally "shocked" at the how high CPL budget figures were. Don't think any of the current PDL ownership can go to CPL unless they partner with deeper pockets or sell to a wealthy investor, which guarantees that they clean house in regards to players and perhaps some staff to upgrade. I only heard that KW United owner was wealthy but I don't know by how much. It's pretty much the only PDL club I heard that would seek to upgrade to CPL
Based on votes cast here, a startup 8-team league would be best comprised of: Edmonton Calgary Winnipeg Hamilton Halifax Ottawa Quebec City KWC or Saskatoon ( I would favour the latter even if it is much smaller )
^ If they can start with a 10-team league, you could add both those teams as well as Victoria, giving a coast-to-coast league with a balanced 5 teams both east and west. Even if there was no further expansion, I'd be okay with that structure in perpetuity.
it's been heavily implied that the league would not be split in 2 conference. It will be a classic single table
That would be better because it would remove any need to try to get an east-west balance to the number of teams. Technically there would be nothing wrong with, say, an Ontario city joining Edmonton, Calgary, and Winnipeg to round out the western conference of an eight team league but psychologically it doesn't fit. It would also eliminate the need to rejig things year by year to respond to changing numbers of teams.
If you look at the CFL schedule, it's hardly a "true" league split in 2 conferences. It's even an inside joke at this point. Smart on CPL to not bother with it. Not enough teams to make it work as it's intended to work
This year I'd argue it's been more of a D1 and D2 where the winning team from the east should be promoted to the west for next season.
Regardless of whether split into conferences or single table, the league isn't going to have a balanced 28-game schedule unless there are 8 or 15 teams in the league. Playoffs will be required.
This is one point I disagree with Paul Beirne. He hinted many times that his preference would be no playoffs, simply to have the winner of the CPL season be declared CPL Champion. I can't see owners going for that as playoffs are extra sources of revenue and usually get the highest TV ratings and attendance. This is where a total of 3 Champions League spots down the road would make everyone happy. CPL Champion (Playoffs) --> Champions League CPL Regular Season winner or runner up if the winner wins CPL Cup -->CONCACAF League Canadian Champion (V Cup)-->Champions League
I haven't voted yet because I'm still struggling with the title of viable/ideal cities since some ideal cities may not be viable. I think the league needs eight teams to be viable. I think it absolutely needs to succeed (average over 5000) in Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Hamilton, and Ottawa. Really it also needs to do that in at least one of Quebec or Halifax, too. Then it could have two sub-5000 teams but still keep the average over 5000 to float the league. I'm just not convinced all those cities are going to hit that average.
8 would seem to be a minimum.....that would give you a 28 match season by playing every other club in the league 4 times (2 at home and 2 away) and you could minimize travel costs by scheduling them on the same trip (eg Edmonton comes to Hamilton plays Thursday and Sunday then goes home).....or something like that. As for the title of the thread....i took it as an option.....In longer form it might have said "pick your top 12 cities for CPL....they can either be your ideal cities or the most viable cities or some combination of those". Honestly, I can't see any of the teams (maybe Ottawa) averaging over 5k in their first year.
I'm assuming Ottawa would do it since they've been over 5000 for the past three seasons now. I can't see them going down by switching to the CPL. I'd be hoping one or two others could do it based on the new team buzz. Maybe Hamilton or Winnipeg as their ownerships seem organized and committed? Maybe Halifax as the only game in town? But I am worried about many of the cities on that list and some I just consider to have no chance at all.
Really depends on what the public perception is with regards to league/team/opponent quality. I have a worry that this league is going to be perceived (and may actually be) a quality step down (at least initially) but that might be offset with more of a sense of "rivalry" with all Canadian opponents. Other than being the first out the gate with teams....what else have these two done to indicate they are any different than the rest? (honest question....I have read nothing positive and the only negative I have read is that Hamilton's ownership will have to fight in court to assert it's right to play soccer at the stadium they think they control (not sure if that has been settled). Lots of cities where CPL can be the only game in town....but, then, there may be a reason why there is no other game in town I did post a link in one of the plethora of other CPL threads yesterday......it was about the formation of a new coast to coast professional basketball league with a spring summer schedule.....I would imagine that Halifax (with a very rich basketball history) would be part of that....as would many of the other target CPL cities (we are a far richer country in terms of facilities that could be used for pro basketball than we are for pro soccer). The lack of any ownership groups stepping forward probably is not soothing your worries at all either!