VAR in Review

Discussion in 'Referee' started by RedStar91, Nov 9, 2017.

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  1. sulfur

    sulfur Member+

    Oct 22, 2007
    Ontario, Canada
    Not only is it a good example of VAR communication, but it's really good at showing the Referee/AR communication and thought process leading up to the VAR question.
     
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  2. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We are definitely getting to the point of "re-refereeing" much more than correcting clear and obvious errors.

    When VAR was introduced, my personal viewpoint was that I wanted to only see plays like the ones below reviewed/overturned.
    • The Thierry Henry goal against Argentina in 2002 WC qualifying
    • The Frings handling on the goal line in the US-Germany 2002 WC quarterfinal
    • The Liverpool offside goal earlier this season in the Premier League where it was clear the AR suffered a brain cramp and was yards off of the 2LD
    To be honest, I don't really even think the VAR "lines" on replays aren't necessary using my threshold. If it's a really close offside decision, I'm fine with not overturning it. What we are seeing now is sucking the life out of the game.
     
  3. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    While I agree to a large part, I hate the idea of OFR for sales purposes. The R saw the deliberate play live, and the VAR confirmed it. To me, that should be enough, and the R. Pull have made the same comment to the captain without the added theater (a/k/a delay) of running over to do an OFR. The more it is used to sell, the more people are going to expect OFRs, and the more delay that gets baked in unnecessarily. (Yes, I realize it is not against the protocol to use that way—but I think it should be.)
     
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  4. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member+

    Jun 12, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    are there any clear criteria for "clear and obvious error"? We just had a send off in the Wolves v ManU FA Cup game overturned after VAR review. The commentators mentioned that the English will not be doing any OFR's. It's all up to the word of the VAR and he gets the final say. In this particular case I don't think it was really an obvious error. A disagreement over whether an orange card challenge should go one way or the other doesn't seem like a clear error to me.
     
  5. Barciur

    Barciur Member+

    Apr 25, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Poland
    I'm baffled by the idea that there will be no OFR in England. That makes no sense, a situation like this is a judgment call, the referee should have an opportunity to make a decision here and have another look, especially in a situation where one ref might give a yellow and another one will give a red...
     
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  6. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    On one of the othe quarterfinals played at Swansea, there was no VAR since Swansea is no longer in the top flight, and there were two plays were VAR might have overturned what was called or not called. So, City advances.
     
  7. Scrabbleship

    Scrabbleship Member

    May 24, 2012
    Would be great if other broadcasters around the world were able to get access to video/audio like this. To my knowledge, no other league does this currently.
     
  8. El Rayo Californiano

    Feb 3, 2014
    Here's one from the Spanish first division yesterday (video at the link). Real Madrid vs Celta, 56th minute, 0-0. The ball goes out of play, AR2 stands still, referee Martinez Munuera signals good goal and then immediately indicates the play is being reviewed. AR2 clearly knows Varane is in an offside position. Martinez Munuera is well positioned to see the last attacking touch (Modric's shot) and to see Varane's position and movement. Eventually Varane is ruled offside.

    A bit of context on Martinez Munuera: he appears along with fellow Spanish referee Sanchez Martinez in that FIFA video that was shared in the Women's World Cup thread (the VAR announcement). The two of them work both ends of VAR in the Spanish league, and they also have been sent out to instruct others in VAR (I know they went to Turkey recently to teach referees from the Turkish professional league).
     
  9. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's an interesting offside decision.

    Our question to answer is did the attacker "make an obvious action which clearly impacts the ability of an opponent to play the ball"

    PRO says:

    I think there's enough to say this is offside.
     
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  10. El Rayo Californiano

    Feb 3, 2014
    #685 El Rayo Californiano, Mar 17, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
    And today it's Sanchez Martinez's turn. Another VAR review, another goal disallowed for interfering with an opponenet. Valencia vs Getafe, 54th minute, 0-0 (from around 0:46):

    Valencia's Gameiro (#9 white) is ruled offside after the review.
     
  11. Interesting comment by Dutch referee Gözübüyük in a soccershow.
    It was about VAR having a (supposed) tendency to interfere too much.
    Like refs now operate with a more or less fixed team of AR's the suggestion to also make a VAR part of the fixed team would eliminate over scrutinisation of situations and it would also eliminate the false impression with many fans once the ref is called to the side to review, a decision will be reversed by the VAR overruling the ref. It would make clear the ref is the one who's in charge.
     
  12. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I saw this clip in the longer clip about Gillett's last game that I posted. I also don't like the unnecessary OFR to "sell" a call. If I'm the referee, I can tell the captain what I saw on the field and that VAR completely confirmed it. The only time I want to see an OFR is if the referee legitimately wants to see the play to determine if the call stands or is overturned.

    In our grassroots games, this would be like me going over to talk with my AR when I know 100% what I saw and that I know I'm right. The only time I want to consult with my VAR is when I legitimately want his/her input before making a final call.
     
  13. Barciur

    Barciur Member+

    Apr 25, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Poland
    For what it's worth, Geiger did the same in the World Cup (going just to sell the call) and was publicly praised for that by Collina. ;)
     
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  14. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's interesting to see the "clear and obvious" phrase get thrown around from NFL coaches in terms of reviewing penalty calls and non-calls. The owners listened and for the first time certain penalties will now be reviewable in the NFL.

    And so there will never be a controversial pass interference call again.

    At least until the season starts.
     
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  15. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    VAR decided today's Ajax-PSV match (highlights are on ESPN I believe as ESPN+ carried the game). Mazraoui of Ajax had a Nigel de Jong karate kick called on him after Kuipers looked at VAR and the match winning goal was a PK off of a penalty called after VAR. I thought the karate kick was a Red in real time watching the match and was surprised that Kuipers only gave a Yellow. The penalty was more difficult to see as the sweeping leg of the defender was tough to see.

    EDIT: ESPN videos: http://www.espn.com/soccer/video?gameId=512527
     
  16. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #691 RefIADad, Mar 31, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2019
    I’m watching the game as I type this. The Mazraouri send off was a great use of VAR. I’m also surprised Kuipers went yellow in real time, but the review didn’t take long and rectified a clear and obvious error.

    EDIT-Just saw the penalty kick VAR call. Also a proper reversal. Good on Kuipers for being able to reverse two huge calls in the Eredivisie title race.

    On a side note, those orange Nike referee shirt and socks are awesome!
     
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  17. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Yikes. I'd love to know what he saw/thought on getting to a yellow on that.
     
  18. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    No different from the call Howard Webb made on Nigel de Jong in the 2010 WC final. If they had VAR back then I'm sure Webb would have sent de Jong off.
     
  19. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Of course Webb would have. I'm curious from a learning perspective--it is hard to see either play without instantly jumping to red. Yet in each of these two cases, a very good referee saw something that led to yellow. I think it would be very interesting to hear Kuipers describe what he saw and his thought process--not to criticize it, but to understand what caused a referee who is far, far better than I am to see that play wrong. While I make enough mistakes to learn from, I much prefer to learn from the mistakes of others.
     
  20. VAR: What did you see?

    Kuipers: I saw he comes high with his foot and touches him slightly.

    Kuipers: After watching the video: that’s a red
     
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  21. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Also it seems like the VAR review videos from PRO are very similar to the KNVB. The transparency and openness is a very good thing and I really hope we see a similar product from England next year.
     
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  22. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know zero Dutch, but I know a little German. It appears that as soon as the contact occurred, VAR was advising Kuipers that a clear and obvious error existed. Specifically, it seems like VAR is saying something to the effect of "that's a red card" almost immediately.

    Again, this is a very good VAR example. Kuipers missed it. He's a great referee, but he missed this one (even the very best aren't perfect). However, VAR was there to quickly rectify the situation. This is the type of call that VAR should be changing, and it really did not take long to rectify it.
     
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  23. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I am a big Kuipers fan. However, a VAR cynic would say that this is a great example of the type of defensive refereeing we're going to see in big matches going forward.

    Kuipers sees an absurdly high and late boot with absolutely no obstruction in his line of sight. Maybe a tiny part of him thinks that it's possible the contact wasn't too forceful and this was more of an accident than anything, but that's being very generous. Still, with VAR as the insurance policy, he can go yellow with the comfort of knowing that if this is a clear red card, VAR is going to tell him so. Whereas if it's--let's say for the sake of argument--at "70% red card", VAR will let the yellow card stand and his position will be defensible. On the other hand, if he goes red and replays show that it's bad enough to justify a red card, but more in the 30-40% red card range, he's stuck with a send off when a yellow card would have been acceptable.

    Error of commission vs. omission and all that. It's better to go yellow on a "preferred" red card and be stuck with the lighter punishment than go red on a "preferred" yellow card" and be stuck with the more draconian punishment.

    I can't say with any certainty that Kuipers did this here, because it's impossible to be in his mind in this particular situation. Maybe he just had a moment where he lost focus and then this is a great example of VAR saving him. But I think it's undeniable that the phenomenon I'm talking about isn't going to creep into referee's decision-making process.
     
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  24. Bubba Atlanta

    Bubba Atlanta Member+

    Mar 2, 2012
    Yep, Atlanta
    Club:
    Atlanta United FC
    If he had shown red in the first place, would VAR have had any role to play? (I have not been following closely the arcana of when VAR is triggered and when it is not.)
     

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