From yesterdays chat: Dov in N.J. What did you gain from your experience playing abroad? How did it change you as a player and a person, if at all? Greg Vanney "As a player, it kind of opened my eyes to professionalism. I felt like I was very professional when I was here before I went to Europe in terms of taking care of myself, in terms of working at traning and after training. But when I got there, professionalism was different. There was more to it. It's a strict regiment of eating right, resting, preparation, everything you do while you're there revolves around the sport. There's so many things going on, so much happening and though soccer is our life, it's not the same. The pressure to win with playoffs is not the same as a table where you play for a team that is fighting to be in the middle of the table or out of relegation. The preparation, the professionalism, that goes into each match, get the result and take care of yourself was much different than I experienced here. It's much like being in a national team camp day in and day out. The quality of players, the competition to get into the roster and the starting eleven, that type of atmosphere is more closely related to a national team environment here and a club environment there. As far as changing me as a player, I don't know it changed me as much as it opened my eyes, gave me more experience of the game on and off the field. " Again someone comments on basically how little regular season games mean in MLS. MLS really needs to come up with a plan to change this mentality. I think it shows in many of the lackluster regular season games. I'm not saying go single table but how about fewer teams in the playoffs or a bonus system for wins and goals scored. This issue really needs to be addressed.
For me that quote stated a different professionalism about how Euro v MLS preparation, not how Euro v MLS games have different value... But of course the value is different, different set of circumstances... I bet if you gave out cash reawrds to teams/players for their standings in Conference play, you would see more "professionalism" too. Its not the games, it the incentive to play the games, changes the rewards and the games will mean more... like making the SuShi worth something for winning... cash, 1st round playoff bye, etc...
That rumbling you here in the distance is the Eurosnob-police coming with their pitch forks and torches.
Whether or not MLS should get rid of or change the format of the playoffs is an ongoing argument that won't be resolved anytime soon. But I do think that the professionalism in the MLS will improve once there is more for teams to play for. Right now, there are only two major competitions - the league and the open cup. But if MLS gets more involved in Copa Sudamerica and gets included in Copa Libertadores, the teams will fight harder to be at the top of the league. Don't you think that if, say, the top three teams in the league were to qualify for an international competition, the teams would play harder in order to get the extra exposure (and money) that comes with it?
We heard something similar from Mathis. What I really wonder is: does single table cause that need to perform or is it that the talent pool is deep enough that someone can get your job at the drop of a hat? I suspect the latter. And the real problem with US development is that there is little pressure from your peers at any level.
This is one of the few places I think the Eurosnobs have a valid point over MLS. Many of the players in MLS are still trying to figure how to be professional. I think that's a lingering effect of the youthfulness of the league. It's also why I think initially the foreign coaches failed not knowing how to handle a low level of professionalism. The college coaches were successful, having their expectations roughly in line with the level of professionalism. And...Why former players (Yallop, Nowak, Kinnear, and Nicol -- the MLS exception) will continue to replace the college level since the leagues gotten more professional, but not up to foreign levels.
I don't think single table causes the need to perform, I think relegation does. But, that's an entirely different argument. I do think that putting fewer team in the playoffs would increase the value of the regular season. The top two in each conference play in conference finals over two legs and then a one game MLS Cup. However, that would increase the amount of teams that will be out of towards the end of the season and more games could suffer from a lack of effort. That's why I think relegation is the main thing that keeps the level of commitment so high overseas as opposed to MLS. I do agree that teams fighting for CONCACAF Champions' Cup spots (when the tournament grows more meaningful) and Copa Sudamericana/Libertadores spots will help as well.
The importance of the regular season could be changed in an instance - how? - by awarding the continental (Copa Sudamericana/Copa Liberatadores) place to the team that wins the Supporter's Shield. Change nothing else, keep the playoffs, MLS Cup etc.... but really make the regular season mean something via a big tourney for the SS winner. (It wouldn't necessitate a switch to single table, per se, however, perhaps a single table and conference standings like you see with hockey standings - they tend to show by division, conference and as a league). Personally, I think this is a stroke of genuis!
I think Grant Wahl had an article last year about improving the intensity of MLS regular season games. One thing he brought up was single game bonuses for victories. I can't help but think that with money on the line, the intensity of the games would rise. Obviously it is an additional cost for a league that is currently losing money, but I think it would have a postive effect on attendence. I would have to figure out how much the league would need to spend to make a difference. (I doubt $25 a player is going to make a difference.) On second thought it might have been Wynalda.
I don't think that's what he was saying at all. He talked about teams fighting for the MIDDLE of the table (there no relegation/Europe calling there)... I think his point is that they live, eat, breathe soccer. It's everything. This is one bunk myth of US / MLS soccer that needs to be dispelled - that you need to play for something MORE than WINNING for it to be meaningful. Winning is meaningful. Kicking someone's a$$ on the field is meaningful. Performing at your top ability is meaningful. Getting paid to play is meaningful. RSL is out of the playoffs right now - if they don't bring their A game it's not because the rest of the games are meaningless (because they are to the players' pride). RSL wants to win now to get some monkeys/demons off their back... When you are a professional, you show up and play hard EVERY game regardless... that's being professional (paid to play hard every game).
I definitely think professionalism begins with the organization - they decide when to renew contracts and what to offer. I mean, it's not that hard to set the level of expectation for the players and such. I would be interested to know what the relative levels of focus and intensity are like in some of the lower leagues (like Dunseth playing for Bodens in the Swedish 2nd or 3rd division)... where salaries/team operating budgets (not just salary caps) and such become more comparable to MLS.
I think this pretty much proves that if they had playoffs in England (for instance in a lower division, or something) that the teams would not take the regular season seriously at all. It would become a Sunday rec league. Thank Gott in Himmel they discovered the holy grail of single table before it was too late. Seriously, a lack of professionalism as far as training is a legitimate concern and criticism of MLS and one reason why importing aging Europeans who've once played for top clubs is not entirely a waste of money. But intensity during the regular season has to do entirely with money, media, competition for playing time, and fan passion, and zero to do with playoffs. Why was there so much intensity when Donovan returned to SJ for the first time? Media and the fans. Why was the first LA derby played with such intensity? Media and fans. Why are many (not all, or even most) matches in Europe intense? Media and fans.
To me, the solution to making every game matter has always been splitting the MLS season into two. Part 1 - runs from late March to late July - single table - every team plays every other team twice - 22 games total - 1st-placed team wins the League Championship Part 2 - runs from late August to October - two divisions, East and West - every team plays every team in its division twice - 10 "regular season" games total - the top 4 teams from each conference qualify for the playoffs - champion of the East plays champion of the West - winner of final wins the MLS Cup
Well there is the Concajoke Champion's League too. But I agree with you that giving the SS a tournament would be worthwhile. OR, a game. MLS could offer to pay a top club to play the SS winner, and let the SS winner keep the gate. Split the game revenue 40/60 between the owner and the players, sell out the stadium. Say FC Dallas were to win, for instance. Pay Club America to play in the Cotton Bowl, sell 40,000 tickets for 20 bucks, add in other revenue of ten dollars a head, the game takes in 30 bucks on 40,000 people, equals 1.2 million. The players share after expenses is 250,000, divided by 25 is 10,000 dollars per player. If it's Metro, you play in the Swamp, may some Euro club to come, and you still net the players 10K or more each. While offering them a bid in another tournament is nice, it's not the same as a pretty good shot at earning 10k to jack your salary.
It's a toss up. Some come to take it easy and then some come and are a positive influence. We tend to underestimate how important the media and fans are. Playing in front of an empty stadium doesn't put much heart into anyone.
Greg was a middling palyer for a bottom dweller in Ligue 1 and Bastia's struggle to stay up was a very tough one. And it's not like Vanney was Peter Crouch at Southampton or Andrew Johnson at Crystal Palace, who had plenty of options if their team was relegated. Greg was going to be replaced - and he frequently was - if his play had slipped. The problem is that the pressure exists on a very low level, for the 15th-20th spots on the roster, which pay little and demand barely a shade more. Most decent players (pretty much every USMNT candidate, including marginal ones) have their jobs secured. But MLS gets what it pays for. I reckon the pay scale even for the lowest French teams is 2-3 times of MLS's.
Its only human nature though to be at your best when there are consequences for failure. I think thats basically what he was saying. This same theme comes up from every player who leaves MLS for Europe. I remember Bruce Arena last year in the NY Times basically came out and said none of the players in MLS take the regular season that seriously until the final month or so because there is little incentive.
I totally agree with you that there should be consequences (such as losing your job to another player) for poor play/finishing... which in many cases there is... However, each organization can instill the same discipline and approach to games as these other clubs do... I mean CRAP - we had it on my highschool team. I think to have MLS players ACT this way (or feel this way) is a cop-out - i.e. then they are not "professionals" and they lack the correct mindset. My point is, that this problem is not a function of the structure of league play and such but rather a lack of mindset instilled throughout each organization.
The consequence for failure in MLS is HIGHER than it is in Europe. Here, few contracts are guaranteed, and we have a cap. So if you make $175K but you play like $75K, you're gonna get cut. But it seems to me that foreign players are far more at risk than Americans/green card holders. And that's a minority of the league. I think the main reasons for greater intensity in Europe are 1. The cap here creates artificial rosters. There, rosters are like they are here in baseball, or like in hockey before the strike. A team's talent was shaped like a pyramid. In Europe, once you get past the top 4-5 players on a typical team, there's a guy with at least 90% of your talent behind you at your position, so if you slip, you lose your starting spot. Here, except for the last 2 or so guys in the starting lineup, there's a clear talent gap between the starter and the backup. A team can't afford a bunch of quality backups. The league's inability to retain players in what I call the Brian West-Ramiro Corrales class, the solid-not-special vets, exacerbates the problem. 2. The type of fans. Notice that the two teams with the most intense fans, DC and Chicago, whine about their players' effort alot less than the other teams' fans. I believe there's a direct correlation. A bunch of white bread suburbanites will tolerate a level of intensity that Section 8 won't. IMO, Steve Nicol's greatest feat is his ability to get his team to play hard. 3. European places. With the expansion of European competition, almost half the EPL can make at least the Intertoto Cup. My solutions would be to put in a variation of the Larry Bird exception to allow teams to build depth, and foster competition for starting positions. Also, MLS should create a formula combining regular season results with post season results for selecting their international representatives.
That can and has happened in MLS. It's not the single table that causes it, it's the importance of regular season results. A critically important regular season can be set up in many ways not just a regular single table. Of course more need sto be done to make MLS results more meaningful, and the easiest ways to do that is to limit the playoffs considerably more and start throwing substantial cash prizes around for order of finish. At some point MLS is going to realize that the rewarding of losing teams and the punishing of winning teams sounds great in theory, but long term weakens the incentives for success. Still, don't read too much into this when it comes to player development, it ain't like Greg Vanney (or Jovan Kirovski before him) has taken the league by storm since his return. It matters, sure, but not by an overwhelming amount.
Isn't this exactly what's happened to Bobby Boswell recently? And Jovan Kirovski? And Davy Arnaud? And Jim Curtin? And Jose Cancela? And Luchi Gonzalez? And Jeff Parke? I don't think any of these guys are close to their team's "bottom 2" starters, but each has recently been displaced either because of the emergence of a better player or a drop in form. The departure of Brian West-type players is too rare to really be a problem, and the depth of the league's player pool is in general significantly underrated.
Artificial? It seems pretty real to me. The artifice may be how the cap is "massaged" to allow big names' salaries to only partially count against a cap. Hockey as a league was shaped like a pyramid, not necessarilly the individual rosters. Detroit and Colorado were leagues ahead of most teams on salary and arguably talent, for example. Detroit at one time had two Hall of Fame offensive lines and a 400 goal scorer of their 3rd freakin' line and I'm not even mentioning the all-world defensmen. MLS only resembles that for teams having guys with actual salaries greater than what counts against the bogus MLS Cap. For that matter most every team, regardless of league, has a pyramid shape. The only ones that don't invariably have salary structures that far exceed league brothers. Yes, most nights there is certainly a quality difference between the first sub and the top players. The exception might be Preki, who absolutely changed the game on his entrance last night. Obviously, it's not every day a team has the league's second leading scorer playing the Schilacci/Roger Milla/spark plug roll. I don't believe those fan groups whine more than others. There are just more of them to whine, so it sounds louder. The percentage is most likely similar among groups large and small. I think only 1 or possibly 2 EPL teams can make the Intertodo. I'm pretty sure it's limited somehow. That would be something like 8 total spots?
There might be structural issues with MLS but: I just went through August and found that my hypothesis that was correct in the beginning of the year is correct for August; that interconfrence games lead to more goals per game, 4 gpg for August, than intraconfrence, 2.8 gpg, games. So that is a structural benifit. Maybe I'll run the numbers for the whole season but I expect to find a half goal a game difference. Along with reaping the benefits of producing youth talent or keenly scouting players MLS teams should have the benefit of something like the Larry Bird exception. So when a team develops a superstar they are able to pay him market value while only having a portion of that count against the cap. So say MLS has moved to a transparent cap where whatever a player "makes" counts against the cap, so when a player who has been with the club for five years contract runs out and another team offers him double his salary his team's GM is able to match that but only have it count for say $(1+I/y) where $ equals current cap number, I equals scale of salary increase, and y equals years with club. Example: 250(1+2/5) = 350 for the new cap number actual salary equals 250 x 2 = 500 Specifics aren't super important but rewarding developmental success is.