Word is that Vanderbilt is dropping men's soccer in favor of sponsoring a women's swimming team. Team members have apparently been notified already. Unfortunate victims of both budget constraints and Title IX, in a school with a big money losing football program.
Apparently Dsocc, you're right on. Here's the link to the article...I just don't get this, but what I do know about Vanderbilt is that on their senior night this year there were only 40-50 fans at the game. This includes Drake families who had made the trek down to see their kids play. I can only imagine that poor fan base and support was what led to the demise of the program financially, but they certainly were getting better at soccer. Tough break. http://www.vucommodores.com/sports/news/release.asp?release_id=2368
Actually, the 2004-05 numbers were that Vandy football made a profit of $2.2 million, while women's sports were the big money loser, coming in at a loss of $7.0 million. (Perhaps the SEC has a program for sharing football bowl revenue?) In any case, with all of these millions floating around, men's soccer was a small budget item, with operating expenses of only $62K. If not for the quota, it seems likely that money could've been found to keep it alive. (numbers can be accessed here -- http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/Search.asp)
That sucks. Tim was doing a solid job with the program both in recruiting and coaching. Hope he lands another job before too long...
That is bull****. I sometimes get seek of seeing what happens to men's soccer in the NCAA. Also, don't forget, at the NSCAA convention next week, the women are to be notified that they will be getting a scholarship increase by 2, to 14 total.
That is true, woman are up to 14 scholarships. What a shame for Vandy, a real shame. Is suspect that the women'srograms will be close to doubling the men's programs at this rate. There must be close to 330 women's program by now and about 195 men's.
Not to get into the topic of title IX, but this is why the rule frankly sucks, teams like Vandy's men's soccer team having to go to the shelf because of a rule that's supposed to promote equality but turns away a lot more male athletes than female. That hardly seems fair to me.
That sucks for Vanderbilt, both the players and coaches. With the national signing day so close, there isn't a lot of money for the players looking to transfers and the poor incoming freshman who were set to play college ball there and are now SOL. It sucks for the players, no doubt about it. Having said that, if a school isn't committed to a program, college soccer is better off without it. The sport needs more programs like Creighton and Santa Clara and Portland where the sport is a priority, or in the ACC and Pac-10, where the administration gives it lots of support. Also, and I used to debate this with the likes of Thomas Flannigan, but I think the quality of college soccer would go up if there were fewer programs. Everytime a program is cut, the better players go elsewhere and take a roster spot from a lesser player and, in theory, there are that many more lesser players playing college soccer. I know it's harsh, and that the occassional late-bloomer is lost in this process, but if the number of players stays the same or increases while the number of roster spots and scholarships shrinks, it's gonna result in a better average level of player in the game. Also, and this is a discussion for another time, but the pursuit of a college soccer scholarship drives so many parents in elite youth club soccer but there are so few out there. Maybe this will help be a wake-up call to parents to remind them that payoff they think is there is far more elusive than they realize and with Title IX it ain't gettin' any easier for male players.
God, I hate this new BS program that doesn't allow you to delete posts. There servers have been really slow the last couple days and I've double clicked because I didn't think it had gone through and then ended up double posting and then can't edit it.
Disgrace by the university. Maybe if they had an AD instead of whatever structure they have, they could have at least cancelled the program in November. An absolute disgrace.
That really sucks. Anyone know which schools are light on upperclassmen and so might still be looking for transfers (albeit non-scholarship)? How about any still recruiting for freshmen this fall? We could compile some info and email it to Vandy's coach.
Missouri Valley Conference will be down to seven teams (it had ten teams two years ago). Is it correct that a conference needs six teams for an automatic berth in the NCAA tournament?
I am ashamed to admit it here, but I am a Vanderbilt alum. The decision to drop mens soccer itself is deplorable, but its implementation is even more so. My next email will be a flame to the university which will let them know in no uncertain terms that they have seen the last dollar from me and my wife, also an alum and college soccer supporter. It appears to me the university is defensive about this decision by burying the disclosure as an afterthought to the announcement of the new swimming team. The mens soccer homepage is silent. I hope they are fearful of the magnitude of the backlash and that my message will feed thiose fears. I am at a total loss to understand the logic of this decision. Vandy had a reputable program and played in a good conference. There are good clubs in Tennessee that can serve as feeders, a PDL team in Nashville, Memphis is the only other D1 program in the state I can think of, there is only one other SEC team with a mens soccer program, and VU is well endowed. Most important, Vanderbilt has always seemed to me to be a great place for a true student athlete have soccer as part of his college experience. I do not condone the ECU decision but it is a lot easier to understand. Vanderbilt's decision leaves a hole in college soccer. I don't like this at all and its implications for further erosion are scary. My point about botching the implementation. A couple of years ago, FIU decided to ax its mens soccer program -- this was more related to Title IX and the creation of a football program there. However, the decision was not implemented until the end of the next seaso, IIRC. This gave the players time to maximize their transfer options. But it also gave the program time to line up support and pressure the AD to reverse the decision. There was an outpouring of support and a good deal of money was pledged by alumni and other supporters. The end result was the program survived. A pity VU could not have been more thoughtful or intelligent in how it handled this stupid blunder. GRRRR!
Great post. I'd rep you, but since BS has now become a socialist state, it's probably irrelevant. That said, there are actually 2 other SEC D1 teams (Kentucky and South Carolina), but your point is well taken nonetheless. Frankly, this was going to happen on Gordon Gee's shift at Vandy sooner or later. Here's a guy with virtually no use for intercollegiate athletics in the 1st place (as you're aware, he actually disbanded the athletic department), and is at the core of the NCAA's D1A football rule requiring an audited attendance average of 15,000. When he left Ohio State, it was specifically in reaction to the athletic (read football) mentality of the school, and after a short stint in the Ivies (Brown or Harvard, IIRC) he finally found a willing participant in Vandy to execute his vision of "intercollegiate recreational activity". He'd be just as happy with intermurals. As to whether Vandy makes money on football, they didn't until the BCS and corresponding SEC payday.
Oops. I will forget that BC, Miami and Virginia Tech are ACC schools for several years to come, too. I emailed Gee. My point was heavy on the hypocrisy of the decision -- the mens soccer team at VU is a paradigm for developing the student athlete he seems to envision. I asked for an explanation of a seemingly irrational decision. I would have emailed the AD directly and tried to get an explanation like Terry Holland provided for ECU, but VU has no AD.
With how well the team did last year with finishing the best they've ever done in the conference (3rd) Tim McClements earning coach of the year, and them placing six players on all-conference teams (Krause 1st, Germanese and Mascarenhas 2nd, Hyde and Shoeni HM, Neusel and Mascarenhas All-Freshman) and advancing the furthest ever in the conference tournament. Don't teams who GOOD team records usually get a bit more prestige from an athletic department? I would figure a team who was breaking all the losing records, goals against averages, and all that garbage would be the team who got put on the shelf. This makes no sense to me at all that after the season they had the athletic department would throw that away. I'm completely baffled...
Unfortunately, these decisions are not made based on the potential of a program. Although Vanderbilt may have had some success this year, their track record over the past few years has not been great. I do not know the exact numbers but they have not lit up college soccer over the last five years. I empathize with the coaching staff and the players at Vandy but as long as college soccer is a non revenue generating sport this is going to continue to happen.
Agreed, which is why coaches who play ugly soccer and so little to promote their program need to smell the coffee and wake-the-********-up. Too few college coaches are doing enough to help grow the sport. They got theirs and that's all that matters to them. It's a very myopic viewpoint. Coaches like Sasho Cirovski need to be the norm, not the exception. I'm not talking about winning an NCAA title. That was just gravy. I'm talking about doing the things to promote the program like get games on TV, market the sport, increase attendance, sell merchandise, etc... AND play, or at least try to, an attractive style of soccer that people want to watch. Sasho gets it. Yeah, I'm sure it all helps his camp become more popular as a direct result, and that means more money for him. But he seems to genuinely care about growing the game and inching it towards making some money, or at least not being a drain on the athletic department budget. I'm not saying Vanderbilt's coaches are at fault in this instance. But the overall culture of college soccer is not one that is drawn towards trying to grow and promote the sport. It's little things like putting out a press release to announce your recruits. How many programs never do that? Or playing slack-ass non-conference schedules to pad your win total. Lots of teams do that. Or playing a kick-ball style that is horrible to watch and puts winning over aesthetics. (Whoah, I sound like Paul Gardner here. If I start checking out my maid's son I know I'm in trouble!) The point is, college soccer is a LONG way from profitability but the journey to that point needs to start and too few coaches are doing it. Because if a rich school like Vanderbilt can drop men's soccer at the drop of a hat, it can happen practically anywhere.
For all the intelligent things you say Sandon, the last email was one of the least intelligent things you have written. You have really no idea what you are talking about when it comes to underfunded programs. First of all Vanderbilt played an extremely attractive style of soccer very committed to attacking. The problem was they couldn't defend a lick until this year and then, and only then, did they have some success. If they would have led the nation in defense, won the MVC and gone to the Elite Eight wouldn't that have helped ? If they would have scheduled creampuffs and gone 15-4 with only MVC losses, would that have helped. The answer to both is probably: YES!!! As far as every coach being Sasho, I think you will find most coaches market their programs by doing clinics, etc. Most don't have the budget that Maryland has or the full support of their marketing department. A school like Vanderbilt has one full-time assistant and needs to recruit 100 players to get 6. Maryland has probably three full-timer assistants (volunteer probably paid out of camp) and needs to recruit a total of 15 players to get six. Sasho has also been at MD for the past 13 years. All those years have not been spent on marketing. They have been spent on getting his team to be competitive, then creating the facility, then creating an atmosphere, etc. I went to Maryland games in the late '90s where there were 300 people. There is infinite amount of work to be done as a coach and a finite amount of time. Tim McClemens was there three years and first was working on getting his team competitive while dabbling in the marketing of his program. While the facility is solid, there was 2 scholarships. Do you you know how many kids you have to recruit to get 6 players with an average of .5 scholarships per year ? Do you have any idea of how much work and effort that takes ? In order to create the atmosphere similar to an Indiana, Creighton, Maryland you have to have A) a good team B) A good facility C) Administration interested in the sport. It sometimes takes a good C) to get the other two which obviously Vanderbilt doesn't have. In the building stages, in which Vanderbilt surely was, the last thing you are worried about paying Fox Soccer Channel $5,000 (which is how those teams get on TV, by paying the fees to FSC. Did you ever notice it was only the cream of the crop in terms of funding MD, NC, Duke, Penn State, Indiana on TV). No, you are out busting your ass to put a competitive team together. So you need to wake up and smell the coffee. Building a program like Sasho has at Maryland took all of those 13 years and he is in the ACC, a conference known for great facilities and a high level of soccer. In the ACC, you need all those things to be competitive and it is important for Maryland to be competitive. By the way, check the link provided on the previous page and you will see that Vandy's budget for soccer was $62,000 and Maryland's was $216,000. Don't get me wrong, Sasho has done a great job. Let's not belittle other coaches who have different battles to fight then getting on TV or not. Let's give credit to the St. Peter's, St. Francis, Georgetown's of the world who have found a way to be competitive with limited funding or very little in terms of facilities.
While money has been brought up a few times (team budget) I think it's impressive what Tim has accomplished there considering he's only allotted four full scholarships (it may be five but I'm fairly sure it is only four) and Vanderbilt isn't exactly a cheap school to go to. Their facility is absolutely amazing and I'm sure there would be more fan support if the kids who were playing there weren't having to pay so much. Trust me, I don't come from the most wealthy family in the world and when my brother was playing college soccer out east they could never afford to go see him play because he was playing for a school that didn't offer athletic scholarships and even though he was really smart we were still paying close to $18,000 a year for school. The fan base COULD be a lot better and I'm sure that would have helped, but it's hard to do a lot when you don't have the athletic money necessary to bring in bigtime players. Let me know if I'm wrong here. Granted, you could bring up situations like Stanford (I believe they don't offer athletic money either, correct me if I'm wrong) and some other schools have been successful with little money or no scholarships at all, but it takes quite awhile (contact American's coach, Todd West). Even though the Patriot League isn't the greatest for soccer, he's still been able to do a lot with very little and get his team to the tournament a few times in the past couple years. I still feel like Vandy was robbed of something that could be great. It's a shame.
Stanford has money and offers athletic scholarships. Its problem, however, would seem to be finding Pac-10 level players who meet the very vigorous academic admission standards (starting with outstanding GPA and SAT scores). Bobby Clark obviously was able to meet that recruiting challenge, but has any other Stanford men's coach been able to recruit like he did? I don't think so. More importantly, he's a great coach ... look at what he did at Dartmouth with zero athletic scholarships. Sorry to digress.
Germanese...I would assume he'll be going to SLU. Don't worry about digressing, it's not a big deal. That's why I said I wasn't sure of their scholarship status. Thanks for clearing that up.
just curious. besides basketball and football, do any other ncaa sports produce revenue? how does soccer compare to baseball? when i was in college (played b-ball) our coach made it a requirement that we attend so many other sports games/matches. I went to a couple of soccer games because it was right by the dorm but I don't recall the baseball games being any better attended. -