I think Seattle is the most appropriate measuring stick to gauge Vancouver's potential opportunities for success in MLS. Seattle Proper - 592,000 Vancouver Proper - 611,000 Seattle Metro - 3.4 million Vancouver Metro - 2.2 million NASL Average Attendance Per Match Seattle Vancouver 1974 13,434 10,098 1975 16,818 7,579 1976 23,828* 8,656 1977 24,226 11,897 1978 22,578 15,724 1979 18,998 22,962 1980 24,246 26,834 1981 18,224 23,236 1982 12,539 18,251 1983 8,181 29,164* 1984 N/A 15,208* * best in the league So during the NASL era... Seattle averaged 18,307 fans per match over a 10 season period. Vancouver averaged 17,237 fans per match over an 11 season period. All Time USL Attendance 1994 - 2008 Seattle -209 games played -686,989 attending -14 year average: **3,287 per match** Vancouver -204 games played -928,634 attending -14 year average: **4,552 per match** Special thanks to Kenn.com for the attendance figures. Anyway it is clear that Vancouver and Seattle have damn near mirrored each other perfectly in terms of support for pro club soccer, both in the NASL and USL eras. It doesn't take any stretch of the imagination to suspect that Vancouver's MLS attendances and season ticket base will be just as high as Seattle's, assuming of course that the Whitecaps play somewhere downtown (as opposed to the suburbs). In terms of proximity to public transit, and pre/post match dining & entertainment venues I don't think you can ask for a better location than BC Place (aside from the Waterfront). I think we should sell 17,000 season tix just as easily as Seattle did.
Vancouver and Seattle are two of the best soccer cities dating back to the 70's When the Caps move to BC Place I predict average attendace to be between 8-12k in the USL with some games drawing close to 20k. When Vancouver joins MLS I predict they will average 20 - 24k. I really hope they get a team soon. Great city, great fans, great derby.
If I wasn't clear, I was agreeing with Johnnie. I was around in the NASL days experiencing the support first hand. If the Caps are a USL team playing at BC Place they'll get Montreal type numbers, I doubt any crowd would reach 20,000. MLS would be a different story though.
What do you think the USL Whitecaps would draw in a bigger venue? Say, for example, if they do the move to BC Place but MLS for some bizarre reason decides not to let the Whitecaps in.
I'm pretty confident that the USL Whitecaps would draw 10,000 - 12,000 minimum per match at BC Place by simple virtue of the fact that they are in the thick of the downtown Vancouver entertainment & nightlife district instead of a suburban Burnaby picnic park. BC Place is extremely easy to reach from anywhere else in Metro Vancouver. It's immediately adjacent to the aptly named Stadium SkyTrain Station, and it sits at the foot of one of Canada's busiest pedestrian streets (Robson). Plenty of fairweather fans will go to those games simply because it's "something downtown" Meanwhile, Swangard Stadium is a decrepit old track and field park tucked away in one of the most notorious areas in the region for traffic congestion. There's no easy way to get there but drive, and when you get there, you'll find parking is quite limited. It's a big turnoff for a lot of people who would probably enjoy themselves were it not for the major hassle they need to go through to get there.
Another factor is that I'm sure that if the whitecaps were to go into BC place as a USL club they would dramatically raise their player budget. Maybe even get their own DP. I can't see them getting less than 10k in BC place. Dominate USL-1 and 15-20k isn't out of the question. Nothing brings out band wagoners like a winning team. I'm sure they could get 30k for games against TFC ... as everyone hates Toronto
Never underestimate the crappiness factor of Swangard. I for one don't want to make the trip to Swangard and pay what the Whitecaps charge for a minor league product in a stadium that hardly classifies as "high school" stadium. Put the same product in a better located, higher quality stadium and I'm there.
Wouldn't that sort of suck for the fans, though? I haven't been to either Swangard or BC Place. I understand some of the drawbacks of Swangard and it's certainly too small for the popular Whitecaps. That said, wouldn't a sold-out Swangard have a much, much better atmosphere than an 85% empty BC Place? I've been to Skydome with sub 20 000 crowds and it's horrible. At 10 000 for a USL game, BC Place would be even worse.
In general I believe Swangard sucks, and even a half full lower bowl for a Whitecaps game at BC Place would be better. I am sure the Whitecaps would be able to come up with a plan (even if it includes tarps/drapes to cover a couple sections) to make the stadium appear full and better the atmosphere if necessary. I really do not see this as a problem if the Whitecaps make the MLS, who knows what the caps will do if their bid fails. Another poster in another thread said something regarding the USL charging a fee for leaving? or teams wanting to make a new league? did not provide any links though...
Swangard has a running track, and isn't close to anything. BC place will place fans close to the field and is downtown. While not perfect the atmosphere should be better than Swangard. That said the atmosphere has much to do about who goes to the games.
you guys should be in, period, end of discussion. Ownership, history, tradition, a ready-made rivalry that's been going on for 34 years... what the heck is MLS waiting for? The fools on here who are making the same stink over BC Place that they're making over Qwest not being SSS-enough don't know their history. Seattle and Vancouver will be attendance and atmosphere superstars in this league.
I agree, The plans for BC Place look Brilliant. Hopefully your ownership group can work a deal where you can control some of the revenue. I would happy to see a game there and will.
Not arguing the general point, but if you're coming from the south, Swangard is easier to get to. From Bellingham, minus the border, it is 50 minutes to Swangard, an hour, 15 min. to BC Place, if there's no traffic to either. But the traffic into BC Place is far worse. A similar thing holds for White Rock, other parts of Surrey, maybe for people coming in from the east. But again, I'm not arguing the general point, for the vast majority, a downtown location is far better.
Just a thought, with the new Canada Line going in, how would a big parking lot near the airport/casino/or anywhere else south of traffic zone and a couple of trains that go direct to BC Place and back before and after the game work? It would take a lot of cars off the road and i would think would make that trip a lot easier.
Conceivably, fans could park at the casino parking structure, or drive a little more towards one of the airport stops. I'm not sure how much parking is being built at the latter... From there, the Canada Line would take them all the way to Waterfront Station, at which point they would transfer to the Expo line and backtrack a bit to BC Place.
Or they could get out at Yaletown Station and walk to BC Place about 700m or 1/2 a mile(7 downtown blocks). An average person could walk that in under 10 mins. The planned COV Streetcar network - Pacific Blvd Extension would see Stations at BC Place/new Art Gallery complex and at Yaletown too, so that might be faster. It could be quicker if you go to Waterfront but if you combine the transfer distance from Canada Line Waterfront Stn to the Expo/M Line(150m), wait for a train, and then go 3 stops to Stadium Stn, and still yet walk 250m to BC Place it might not be that advantageous. Ok...sorry for nerdy rambling on my part If you mean express trains, this will never be possible.
Not express, but during games 2 or 3 more trains before and after the game. Also, would it take longer on the train or to drive with average game day traffic.