Ok... I need this question answered. Who should start up front in EURO 2004? It has been plaguing my mind. I have been back and forth on this issue. van Nistelrooy, then Makaay, and now I am leaning towards Kluivert again. Please... someone make a solid case for one of these guys! -------------------------------------- My Opinions.... Preface: I have seen van Nistelrooy play the most of the 3 players (I live in the US), so I will have to most to say about him. I have seen 3 Bayern games lately that Makaay played in. And I just the other day saw Kluivert play with Barca vs. Real Madrid. Here are my findings... Ruud van Nistelrooy is one dimensional. What some people call a one trick pony. Saha was rude with his comments about Ruud, but (in a way) right. **** In the interview Saha was also quoted as saying van Nistelrooy: "needs to gain experience at the highest level. Ruud never scores from outside the 18-yard area and never takes free-kicks. "It is very rare to see him trying his luck from distance. "Ruud doesn't take much of a part in the team's collective play. His game is all about finishing." **** It doesn't seem Ruud fits. At least not with some of the other players I want to see on the field for Oranje, such as VDV and Robben. Both attack minded players. Ruud is a fine player, but he will not come back and help on defense. He also will not dribble to allow others set up in good attacking positions. To be honest, this kinda annoys me. Don't get me wrong though. Ruud is a wonderful player. He is a great finisher. He will score goals with the right kind of support. But I am not sure if the Dutch national team plays that sort of game. In fact... they don't. They are not a one player attacking team, and with that many quality players, rightfully so. Roy Makaay is also a good attacking player. I have seen some say he disappears for quite some time during games. I have seen Makaay disappear, and I have seen him score amazing goals in games in which he plays a major role. I think he is a better fit for Oranje than RVN, but I don't know if he's THE ONE. I'd like to see him start and play most of the game in an upcoming friendly to see how well he meshes with the rest of the starters. Patrick Kluivert I thought was out of the race altogether. Until the other day when I saw the Barca vs. Real Madrid game. I was reminded of his ability that I thought was long gone. Not that he had an amazing outting. He played well. He came in as a sub late on, but made a major difference for Barca. At his best I feel Kluivert is the best fit for Holland. His ball-handling and great distribution of the ball make Holland's attack more fluid and thus, much more potent. Just as with Makaay I'd like to see him start and play a full friendly along with the starters to see if he still has his magic. I am looking forward to everyone's thoughts on this controversial subject. Remember: We are not looking for the best player overall. We are looking for the best player to head the Dutch attack in Portugal. Just like your pee-wee coach told you, there is no "I" in team.
The best attacking pair that will never happen for various reasons: Kluivert & van Hooijdonk Makaay and Ruud are both 'just' finishers, Makaay being the better one of the two. It shouldn't be that hard for van Hooijdonk to fill that role, especially seeing as he's a scoring machine in whatever team he plays for, but he also brings the "my free kicks are as dangerous as a penalty, booyah!" factor with him. It's a waste not to take advantage of his freekicks from the beginning of the match. Kluivert is Holland's most technical forward, not even a koala bear high on bananas wouldn't put Kluivert in the starting eleven if he wasn't injured. That same koala would spit on whoever has the moronity (has just been declared an official word today) to choose van Overrato above Kluivert.
Over the last 3 seasons for their clubs: RvN had 66 goals Makaay had 61 goals van Hooijdonk had 55 goals Kluivert had 42 goals You be the judge.
What those same players have done so far throughout their careers for their home country: Patrick Kluivert...........................Caps 75 / Goals 40 Ruud van Nistelrooij.....................Caps 30 / Goals 14 Pierre van Hooijdonk....................Caps 36 / Goals 11 Roy Makaay................................Caps 28 / Goals 3 Rivers... As you can see, players can be quite different between their club and nat'l team. To make a strong case, you have to say a bit more than that. Like: How does the player fit into the dutch nat'l scheme? etc. This isn't just a hit and run topic. That is the problem, no one ever makes a case. They just say, "Hey, he sucks" or "He's great!". They never say WHY though. Stats are always good, but back em up with some commentary. Lets find out the WHY. Greatness: Johan Cruijff.............Caps 48 / Goals 33
Van Hooijdonk has a wicked free kick, no doubt. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about him to agree or disagree with you on his status in the starting 11. What I do know is that he is a scoring machine, and he seems to be a well rounded player. Thanks for putting his name in the mix. My mistake for not including him in the initial post.
It always makes me laugh when people say Van Nistelrooy is a one-trick pony. I even heard someone say about him once: "Ruud is useless, all he does is score goals" - well that is the striker's job, for god's sakes, what more do you want from him? Also, Dutch people who've seen Ruud play for PSV for years know that he is forced in a role at ManU. He is capable of much more than poaching in the penalty box, he is in fact very skillful and has scored and created many beautiful goals in Holland, but the ManU system restricts him to staying in the penalty box. What does bother me about Ruud is that he hasn't scored many important goals for Oranje, whereas Kluivert obviously has. Patrick tends to rise to the occassion for some reason, he's always there for the team in big matches. All in all I reckon Kluivert is by far the most talented striker we have. Then it all depends in what system we play, of course. If we play with two proper wingers (Robben when fit, Vd Meijde), and with Van der Vaart in the no. 10 position, Van Nistelrooy is more suited for the striker job than Kluivert. But if we play like we're playing tonight against Greece, with a square in midfield, I prefer Kluivert and Makaay up front. Oh and let Makaay play against the Germans. They're scared of him.
I would have to disagree. Ruud will not create goals. He will finish and that is it. But we are both in agreement that he doesn't seem to get this done much for Oranje. The Dutch system lets players do what they do best. In these past friendlies and Scotland match what did you see Ruud do? -----> Stand in the box. Again, I am not bashing Ruud. He is a fine player. But he will not create goals on his own, and there is nothing wrong with that. In my opinion, he just does not fit in with the teams style. The dutch players are not support players, they are all strikers, even if they don't line up in that position at kickoff.
if you want to go with who is playing the best right now you have to go for makaay. if you want to go for the best out and out striker you have to go for makaay. is makaay the best fit? i dont think so. i think kluivert is and like oscar i definitely would not mind having p-air starting. even if he were to get no touches, with robben, vd vaart, et al drawing fouls he is bound to score once per game makaay with raffie right behind him would probably do very well. i prefer him over ruud any day as i think ruud is sh¡t for the oranje. if 2 strikers were going to be played i would want pk and super roy. imo the depth chart should be: 1 & 2) PK/Makaay (either one); 3) p-air; 4) horse face; and for johanna 5) collins john
Aren't the Dutch playing 3 strikers today against Greece? Anyways, why don't we just let Advocaat pick the strikers, and then if the Dutch lose this summer than we the "experts" will tell him what he should have done. So if he plays 2 strikers and they lose, obviously he should have picked the other 2, right? That's probably what will happen.
I hope Advocaat goes with Makaay and Kluivert tonight against Greece. Johan, when they say diamond shaped formation... what exactly do they mean? Here's what i'd like to see... I left out Robben because of injury, I still think Overmars is a great player anyway. But I think I would start Robben over him if he was healthy. ............Makaay........Kluivert Overmars..........VDV...........VDM .........Davids...............Sneijder Cocu..............Stam..............Heitinga ......................VDS Bench.. Waterreus, De Boer, Bouma, Van Bronckhorst, Reiziger, Zenden, Van Bommel, Seedorf, Van Hooijdonk,Van Nistelrooij,
If you don't care enough to add anything intelligent to the conversation, then stop posting in this thread. Some people like talking about this subject, if you don't, that's cool, but don't try to convince us to drop the subject. Go find something you care about. I promise, I wont show up with snied comments and tell you to stop talking about it.
this is what i think of as a diamond midfield ............pk.........super roy ...............raffie.................. .....davids..............seedorf ...............cocu............. it makes a diamond or a cross, not too wide (no wingers), a #10 right in the gap and a dmid
Thanks Asta... Do you think it will be more effective? Also... where would Robben fit into that scheme being that he is an attacking winger? Seedorf? He is a great player for his club. But I heard he is not well liked at home and most likely wont start for that reason. Is that true? By the way.. lets see your full lineup for portugal with everyone healthy.
Lets get back on topic... what's the best option for the head of the dutch attack? 1 or 2 Strikers? and Makaay, Kluivert, van Nistelrooy, and/or van Hooijdonk?
I know. What I meant was PK and Roy. I don't think RvN would operate as well in a 2-man strike force, based on what I've seen from his time at ManU. Naturally, this isn't the same system as the Oranje, but he just seems to be more active when he's a lone target man, at this point, and isn't quite sure how to get into good positions when he's linked with another striker.
Asta already explained. It's basically a 4-4-2, as opposed to the 4-3-3 with proper wingers that we've been playing. It's sort of an emergency system, played in case our wingers aren't fit - which was the case yesterday. Good thinking by Advocaat: 4-3-3 will not work if we haven't got the wingers for it, and we'll only play it in Portugal if both Vd Meijde and RObben are fit I reckon.
robben wouldnt fit into the scheme, but dont expect that scheme to be used in most matches if any come this summer. only if 2 true wingers are not fit will this tactic be used. here is what i suggest for europe, although i dont think it is likely. only 1 true striker w/ pk...........this is very similar to barca's lineup, except robben is a true winger and not a cut in winger. ...................kluivert................... robben............................vd meijde ...........davids........sneijder............ (maybe raffy for sneijder) ....................cocu..................... w/ roy ...................makaay................... robben..........raffy...............andy ..........davids.........cocu/vBommel/sneijder...idk how much defense is needed super roy and kluivert (no wingers) ...........pk........makaay........ ..............raffy............... ....davids..........(im not sure) maybe sneijder ............cocu............ i will admit that there are things about the linups i chose for each formation that i dont like, so put in ur 2 cents. and no matter what i want the defense to be bouma...heitinga....stam...de jong the thing is tho heitinga will be the rb and bouma will most likely be in the middle, so i would like to see gio as left back.
If you insist on a lineup sans Van Nistelrooy. wingbacks 3-5-2 ------------------Makaay---------Kluivert ---------------------------VDV Zenden/GVB---------Davids--------Sneijder/Cocu/Van Bommel------Melchiot/Reiziger --------------------Bouma-------Staam-----Heitinga ---------------------------Van der Saar 4-4-2 ala Milan (Sneijder has Pirlo'like role as a deep playmaker) fullbacks provide much of the width. -----------------Makaay--------Kluivert ------------------------VDV ----------Davids-------Sneijder-------Seedorf ---GVB/Zenden----------------------------------Melchiot/Reiziger/DeJong ---------------------Bouma-----------Staam 4-3-3 (wingers, though I prefer Ruud for this one) -------------------Makaay/Kluivert ----Robben----------------------Van der Meyde --------------Van der Vaart/Sneijder ------------Davids----------Van Bommel/Cocu/Sneijder ---------Bouma-------Cocu-------Staam-------Reiziger/Heitinga/DeJong/Mario
Throwing in my 2 cents. Kluivert should be a starter every game. The problem is that he is often the laziest person on the field. When he is full of energy he scores tons of goals. When he is not on song he complains and walks around the field. Anyway to stuff a couple of power bars down his throat before he hits the pitch? The Dutch need to evaluate him before everygame. If he is enthusiastic and is high energy then start him. If not put in Horse face or Makaay.