USWNT and race

Discussion in 'USA Women: News and Analysis' started by lil_one, Jun 3, 2020.

  1. Smallchief

    Smallchief Member+

    Oct 27, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    That's one of the best essays I've read on this subject. White privilege is real -- and anybody who denies it is just plain wrong.
     
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  2. jnielsen

    jnielsen Member+

    May 12, 2012
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    I agree.
    "I’m writing this because the point is: Any racism at all, on any level, is worth confronting, and worth exposing, and worth speaking up about. "
     
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  3. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    Well. R.E.Lee and Jeff Davis knew. So did Nathan Bedford Forest, founder of the KKK.

    knowing isn’t enough. You have to participate in being an agent in changing what you know is wrong.
     
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  4. Auriaprottu

    Auriaprottu Member+

    Atlanta Damn United
    Apr 1, 2002
    The back of the bus
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Fantastic article. I wish more of the usual posters here were as concerned about racism as the players seem to be.
     
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  5. italiancbr

    italiancbr Member

    Apr 15, 2007
    Don’t forget to include Jesse Jackson in that group. In his own words: "There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then I look around and see someone white and feel relieved." Let’s acknowledge that race-baiters can also be racist towards their own race.

    Since racism is an idea, rather than a disease that can be eradicated or an army that can be vanquished, it should be obvious that there is always room for improvement. However, what kind of change are you looking for? If you’re looking for positive change, then the goal should be to create equality for all, irrespective of race, rather than stoke division by seeing everything through the prism of race. Does that sound familiar? “I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.” Is that the rallying cry of protestors? It’s no coincidence that family members of MLK and Muhammad Ali, icons of the civil rights movement, have spoken out against the current movement. Change should be proportional, beneficial, and unifying.

    First, change should be proportional to the problem. That means that solutions should address the problem, not worsen it. The issue in the George Floyd death was police brutality. Agitators wanted to insist that this could only happen to a black man by racist white cops. But a white guy, Tony Timpa, died the exact same way. And black suspects are as likely to be killed by black cops as white cops. Senator Tim Scott tried to address police brutality in ALL cases through a justice reform bill, and then it was blocked for obvious reasons. In the meantime, the 'abolish and defund police' type of change caused two deaths of black teens in the CHOP/CHAZ area and skyrocketing shootings all across the country.

    Secondly, change should be beneficial. That means that you seek to improve the lives of those that you are advocating for. There were 11 high-profile police killings of black men between 2014-2016, which all resulted in local protests, yet only three cases ended up with police officers being sentenced. In the George Floyd case, the police officers involved were arrested but that still wasn't enough to prevent nationwide protesting that devolved into violence. So were the protests worth it? I’m not even talking about the minority-owned businesses that were looted, vandalized, burglarized, and damaged during these protests. I'm talking about the skyrocketing shootings and deaths that have occurred as a result of the protests. 111 shootings in Minneapolis? Or 125 shootings in NYC and over a dozen dead? Or 78 shot, 11 dead in Chicago in one weekend, with 212 black homicides since the beginning of the year? I could go on but why are these local headlines instead of national news?
    Has dying at the hands of a gang member or a drug dealer become more tolerable to a community or country than someone dying at the hands of police? Or does being killed at the hands of police officers now make a person's life more noble or praiseworthy than someone killed by a random stranger? These are rhetorical questions.

    Lastly, change should be unifying. This should be obvious but the protest movement itself has been divided and co-opted by various groups. The groups that are seemingly the most vocal about the protest movement (the national media, college professors, and Hollywood) actually have the most inequality in those fields, with whites accounting for at least 90% of news editors, tenured professors, and TV and movie producers. That should be the first sign that there are ulterior motives at play. Also, the cities that are the most diverse and progressive, are the most segregated. On the other hand, institutions that focus on content of character rather than race, like the military, are held up by sociologists as the model of good race relations in America, with blacks occupying more management positions in the military than in any other sector of American society. The country is currently being played against each other, and while downplaying racism is dangerous, so is overstating it. Rather than being given a hopeful message and putting things in perspective, we're being fed a narrative that the United States is the most racist country on Earth. Many don't know how the Roma people are treated in Europe, or the Kurds in the Middle East, or the Hmong, Rohingya, and Uyghurs in Asia, or the Darfuris and Sahrawis in Africa, or any indigenous group in S. and C. America. Perhaps if there was greater awareness of world affairs there would be less hatred of American values and symbols.


    When you increasingly segment according to differences, the concept of solipsism, the idea that you have to be one to know one and you can only understand those like you, is reinforced. There is no limit to how far you can take division, which ends up increasing racism. Racism in most countries isn't viewed through the prism of black and white, but through shades of gray, and includes ethnic, cultural, and religious differences. This is why protest organizers now complain that Latinos and Asians are indifferent to their cause.
     
  6. jnielsen

    jnielsen Member+

    May 12, 2012
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    I think your cause and effect conclusions are invalid, but on my way to work and don't have time to pursue right now.
     
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  7. Auriaprottu

    Auriaprottu Member+

    Atlanta Damn United
    Apr 1, 2002
    The back of the bus
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
  8. lil_one

    lil_one Member+

    Nov 26, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Auriaprottu repped this.
  9. jnielsen

    jnielsen Member+

    May 12, 2012
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    And Maurice Edu. Lalas will never run out of ways to embarrass himself.
     
  10. Auriaprottu

    Auriaprottu Member+

    Atlanta Damn United
    Apr 1, 2002
    The back of the bus
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Altidore as well. Jozy's always on point, tho, so it should have been expected.
     
  11. Chastaen

    Chastaen Member+

    Alavés
    Jul 9, 2004
    Winnipeg
    Club:
    Aston Villa FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But that is the way this conversation always goes unfortunately. The topic has no merit because identity p-word has become so ingrained in the subject matter that we will never be able to address the actual issue. It is far easier to dehumanize the opponent than to admit that they may have some valid points. In doing so many people who would agree with 50% of what is said won't bother anymore because if you do not support 100% of the statement than you are <bad term here>. It is better to sit in silence than to risk saying something that will be misconstrued and outcast. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
     
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  12. Chastaen

    Chastaen Member+

    Alavés
    Jul 9, 2004
    Winnipeg
    Club:
    Aston Villa FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    But we attribute this to the color of ones skin and that is the only plausible explanation. Even mentioning otherwise is unthinkable and will brand you as racist. Sorry but this involves a lot of back story...

    Im white (Obviously, right). I grew up in a city under a desegregation order. So what this means is children from one neighborhood would go to school in a different neighborhood to fill racial quotas. This was to combat the inherently racist makeup of the schools, so in the case of my two schools (The one I lived by and the one I attended) that involved a 70 minute bus ride each way for the students. My neighborhood was a middle class neighborhood (Mostly white) my school was in a ghetto (Yes a ghetto- mostly african american). At my school almost all of the kids that were not bussed in were African American, they were poor and many of them were not there for school. (My first year everybody over the age of 20 and not in their Senior year was removed from school) Most of them got free breakfast and lunch and school supplies. Those of us bussed in had to purchase food cards and supplies.

    I was often in fights at the beginning of the year, because I was white. It was always new kids and they didn't know any better. For the most part a lot of people got along, I had black friends (check that box please), I didn''t care what my girlfriends skin color was (check that box please), and often when I would get jumped I always had friends with different skin colors help even the fight up.(check that box if it exists). The same thing happened in my neighborhood school, but flip the races around. But we all learned how to get a long for the most part. Some African American kids didn't like me...because they didnt like me. Not because they were black. Just like I didn't like some kids because of them, not their skin color.

    Now to the meat...

    Our schools were segregated because our neighborhoods were segregated. I lived in a middle class, mostly white. nice neighborhood. My friends lived in a lower class, mostly black, run down neighborhood. It was deemed color was the reason and issue behind why the African American kids were having problems, so the solution was implemented. Now I had two parents, most of my friends only had a Mother. I lived with my Mom and Dad, who both worked. Many of them lived with extended family, where very few worked. It was odd for me because I knew most of their grandparents because they lived with them and none of my grandparents lived in the same state as me. But many of my friends also lived with just their mom and brothers and sisters. They didn't have a lot of money because they had one source of income (Often low paying jobs unless they rode a bus downtown to work). I realized that the color of our skin wasn't our biggest difference it was our socio economic environment. Not having to play part time parent was a huge benefit. Not having to wait until school the next morning to eat was a huge benefit.(yes most kids families were on public assistance).

    Many of my friends didn't finish school, a few of them did not live long enough. They would drop out to work, take care of their brothers and sisters or just felt it was a waste of time. Many of the girls KNEW how many kids to have before the free money you got from the government in support didnt pay enough to justify the kid. Their plan was to have X kids, live with their Mom and they felt they didnt need school. I'd guess in my senior year roughly 25% of the girls had children (all races, but the number of African American girls with kids was the majority),

    So writing this I decided to look at where my school is at today 30 years after I graduated. I will add a number in (parenthesis) to cover the average of all schools in the state.

    4 year graduates 71% (84)
    SAT(A test used for college admissions) Participation rate less than 1% (8)
    Advanced Classes Less than 1% (11)
    Graduates in College or Vocation Program 19% (43)

    Students per teacher 11:1 (16:1)
    Students per counselor 298:1 (503:1)
    Percentage of Teachers with 3+ years experience 63%(88)

    The school is 97% Black, 2% White , 1% Native American and all other makeups are less than 1%.
    Low Income At Risk Students 100% (71)
    Students with Disabilities (36% (15)

    TLDR: I think the child's environment is a bigger impact on their prospects of success than the color of their skin. Yes racism exists, but I think the amount in holds people back is overexaggerated.
     
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  13. sitruc

    sitruc Member+

    Jul 25, 2006
    Virginia
    The neighborhoods were segregated because of racism.
     
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  14. Chastaen

    Chastaen Member+

    Alavés
    Jul 9, 2004
    Winnipeg
    Club:
    Aston Villa FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    When your only tool is a hammer every problem becomes a nail.
     
  15. Auriaprottu

    Auriaprottu Member+

    Atlanta Damn United
    Apr 1, 2002
    The back of the bus
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    lol

    You didn't really address the post. The neighborhoods are segregated because of racism. The socioeconomic environments are different for the same reason. That's not difficult to grasp, and yet you're clearly struggling with it. Centrist one-liners don't do much to make you seem any more well-briefed on the matter.

    I don't know if you live in this country or have learned its history, but you probably ought not comment in such a faux-knowledgeable fashion unless you're here and have done. This isn't the result of anything that happened in the 30s or 40s- we're talking about four centuries of mistreatment. That affects everything about a culture.
     
  16. Chastaen

    Chastaen Member+

    Alavés
    Jul 9, 2004
    Winnipeg
    Club:
    Aston Villa FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Because the post simply isn't true. People may want it to be true but that doesn't make it reality. There are many examples of entire neighborhoods being grouped by culture all across the globe but that isn't racism. And there are examples of neighborhoods long ago being formed for specific people but that doesn't equate to racism today.

    There is no Law, Rule or Group in the US forcing people to live where they live. And there are plenty of examples of people moving out of those areas and into better areas despite the color of their skin. There are also plenty of examples of people of other skin colors moving into those neighborhoods.

    I'd wager your response would have been better suited had you actually read and thought about the posts in the thread you were responding to before you posted a response. Or you just don't realize the States that make up the country. Using big words when you haven't even kept up with the conversation just leaves you looking...silly. And again lead credence to the phrase "When your only tool is a hammer every problem is a nail".
     
  17. Chastaen

    Chastaen Member+

    Alavés
    Jul 9, 2004
    Winnipeg
    Club:
    Aston Villa FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And to provide further clarification that you may not bother to read before jumping in half informed.

    Being a white person growing up and out of a predominately poor and African American neighborhood I cannot comment on what it feels like as a black person who is treated differently for the color of their skin only as a white person treated differently because of the color of their skin. That being said my ex-wife who also grew up and out of the same neighborhood can comment about what it feels like as a black person who is treated differently for the color of her skin. She has found that the idea of racism has a greater negative impact than actual racism itself. When we were teens she had been convinced that she couldnt get a job because she was black and didn't bother trying until she was almost 20. She was hired at the first place she applied and ended up working her own way through college. She said the world she lived in after the age of 19 was totally different than the world she was told she was living in when she was younger.

    Alot of this came out after we watched an interesting documentary about a teacher named Jane Elliot, who ran the "Blue Eyes/Brown Eyes Exercise" to teach children about the harm of racism. During the exercise the children who were told they were inferior actually did worse on assignments and this resonated with my wife. The idea that she was constantly told the deck was stacked against her made it harder for her to be motivated to try and do the same things that white people would do. She pointed out also that the 'claims of racism' may actually be helping white people more than actual racism because the children who were told they were superior actually improved on their assignments, so she proposed that claiming white people were racist and holding black people down was detrimental to black people without any actual racism having to be being present. Now this doesnt deny that racism still exists, nor does it imply racists dont exist. But the idea of racism may be more of a negative impact on people of color than actual racism itself. What better way to keep people down than to tell them that they can't possible succeed because the deck is stacked against them.
     
  18. Auriaprottu

    Auriaprottu Member+

    Atlanta Damn United
    Apr 1, 2002
    The back of the bus
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Well, you immediately went all bootstrappy, so I'll leave you to whatever it is you have going on. Cheers!
     
  19. mingyung

    mingyung Member

    Jun 7, 1999
    There has been systematic segregation of neighborhoods by race throughout US history. That is fact. This segregation was enforced through a number of laws and policies, both formal and informal (redlining, for example). To claim that this segregation is simply the result of cultural affinity is an alibi for racism.
     
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  20. BrooklynSoccer

    BrooklynSoccer Member+

    Jan 22, 2008
    True. Minorities, Blacks especially, were largely prohibited from integrating.
    But also many Blacks and Latinos never had a desire to integrate into white communities.
     
  21. Bob Lamm

    Bob Lamm Member

    Mar 7, 2016
    New York City
    Exactly right. The argument about "cultural affinity" is complete b.s. Of course in any group there will be some people who prefer to live in a community with members of that group. But there is a long, well-documented history all over the United States especially of African Americans--but also of Latinx, Asian Americans, Jews, and others--who wanted to move into neighborhoods and were kept out. Sometimes violently. As a resident of New York City, I continue in 2020 to read ugly stories about certain white neighborhoods in the New York metropolitan area that try to keep African Americans out and harass any African Americans who successfully move in.
     
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  22. Bob Lamm

    Bob Lamm Member

    Mar 7, 2016
    New York City
    Just read this piece by Lauren Holiday. SO powerful. Thanks so much for posting this.
     
  23. lil_one

    lil_one Member+

    Nov 26, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    With a few others jumping in, and because its relevant to this thread, I'll update it by pointing out that at the first opportunity (post-USSF revoking the ban) that most USWNT players took a knee during the national anthem in this last game. Additionally, players wore BLM warm-ups, and released a statement via their social media platforms.





    Additionally, the team had some conversations in camp about race. Dunn said, "We had incredible conversations as a team during this camp. It was so incredible to get everybody together, and I think on this team, we’ve started that process of just getting involved in deeper conversations and starting to get to know each other on a deeper level. So, I’m truly proud of this group for coming together in a short camp and putting forward a powerful message and standing unified.”
     
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  24. lil_one

    lil_one Member+

    Nov 26, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm linking the pre-match press conference with Ali Krieger here where she was asked about some teammates standing and others kneeling during the national anthem. It starts at about 1:30:



    She's just as diplomatic as you'd expect; I don't expect her to call out teammates or to reveal content of the difficult conversations that have happened behind closed doors. I get team unity, but I also think if Lloyd could earlier say kneeling is a distraction (when Rapinoe was doing it), but they got past it and went on to win the WC, then it should cut both ways, and players now (particularly players of color who've asked for white allyship) can call out players for standing and still have team unity.

    I myself have had mixed feelings about some players standing and others kneeling, particularly on MLK day. I don't want to see players vilified for choosing to stand, and I don't want to see kneeling become this empty action (like I feel like it already is becoming). This opinion piece articulates some of my mixed feelings about it: https://www.allforxi.com/2021/1/21/22241922/when-uswnt-standing-for-national-anthem-still-a-problem

    Anyway, for those who've not dived as deep into it all and for further context, we only have explanations from a couple players who have chosen to stand. Kelley O'Hara explained her rationale on Julie Foudy's Laughter Permitted podcast last month (starts at about 17:25): https://www.espn.com/radio/play/_/id/30531152

    Carli Lloyd's response though was the one though that people are calling disingenuous (and likely the trigger for the question posed to Krieger), and it was in the post-match press conference (starts at about 1:50):



    And because I'm going to anticipate some responses from people here, I'm just going to drop this clip from a podcast here, too, because the work is hard and the burden players of color have had to bear is much greater than simply kneeling or standing during the anthem:

     
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