USMNT: The Berhalter Era pt. 1/ World Cup 2022 /Controversy

I am not sure about that. Grad school, IMHO, tends to teach arrogance. I didn't see it as much when I was working my way through school in the auto shop at Sears. But that may be across academia. Might also be something you see more in the so called "elite" schools.

 

My experience is less about science and more about academia, where much (not all, of course) foundational scientific research is done.

For some people, being treated as an expert, even if that expertise clearly is associated with a particular discipline (or sub-niche of a discipline), evolves into a mindset of acting like an expert on just about any issue. Like "The Professor" on Gillian's Island. You blow enough laudatory sunshine up someone's ass long enough, and eventually they start believing they're a genius more generally.

Or the flip side: scientists, academics are (generally speaking) specialists, who make their name (and are granted tenure) through their independent contributions to a specific field. Which can lead to an over-valuing of the contributions of that discipline, and under-valuing of other areas. During the pandemic, I've witnessed a few entertaining takedowns by infectious disease experts of physicists who - for reasons unknown - thought their expertise somehow applied directly to this situation. It did not.

Anyway, my apologies to the academics on this thread, and in other threads on BS, who I've had the p,ensure of getting to know over the years. I generalize. In 20+ years of working in academia, I've known many academics who are nothing like this stereotype. But I've also knocked heads with an annoying number who are.

 

Yep. That sums up my experience pretty well. And I will be honest, I've been prone to this at times--less so as I've grown older and had a wife (and friends) who will call me on it.

 

I wouldn't say that academia necessarily teaches arrogance as much as there is a natural tendency for some people to exhibit arrogance after completing any kind of specialized training that gives them "specialized knowledge" that sets them apart from the "lay people." Guys working at a Sears Auto Shop may be salt of the earth types, but some of the guys working at the service department at the auto dealership, especially "prestige" dealerships, can be pretty arrogant.

Sometimes, just getting a job promotion can lead to arrogance. My sister has told me plenty of stories from the Post Office, where someone who was once pretty cool became a raging a-hole once they got promoted.

Law enforcement and the legal field in general, because there are all kinds of training and certifications, lend themselves to arrogance. Some police officers who just graduated from the academy have been known to act as if they have passed the bar exam and can provide legal advice. Some believe that undergoing a little bit more than a week of training can make someone a "Drug Recognition Expert." https://www.theiacp.org/how-to-become-a-drug-recognition-expert. Then there are sizable chunks of forensics that are based on junk science but people just assume are more accurate than random guessing, yet some people are treated as "experts" in the field.

And I don't think I need to tell anyone about arrogance among attorneys. Some attorneys who are very successful in civil practice think the same tactics they use in a divorce case can be used in a criminal case. And sometimes you have newly elected judges who have never set foot in a courtroom get "black robe disease." And as I've said elsewhere, my wife sometimes has to remind me to turn off the lawyer switch.

I think any area where someone is treated as an "authority" simply by achieving a certain level of competence can lend itself to arrogance.

 

In my experience, most scientists are happy to explain their work to anyone who is genuinely interested. If they are asked questions to solicit information about their field, they will happily respond. But if they or their conclusions are attacked by someone [Mod edit] of ignorance, their response could be perceived as "arrogant".
[Mod edit]

 

Please, keep politics out of this discussion. It was totally unnecessary here. Most politicians have little understanding of science--either side. And we were not talking about politics at all.

I recall a site where to "fix" this and avoid controversy, any mention of the names of the two candidates running was simply deleted. It did make it tough to talk about Clintonville, though--as it came out "ville".

 

Yeah, I think that extreme levels of scientific ignorance is a trait shared across the political divide. The "vaccinations cause autism crowd" makes for some unusual political bedfellows.

 

This is true. My very liberal anti-vax sister-in-law sounds exactly the same as some of my more conservative anti-vax friends when the topic of vaccines comes up.

 

I would argue that, rather than "shared across the political divide" a better description would be, "shared at the extremes at both sides of the political divide."

 

Horseshoe theory.

 

Random anecdotal observation. I work and interact with physicians from around the country at prestigious institutions from time to time. These are physicians who are key opinion leaders in their various fields, hold medical degrees from top tier institutions, often have PhDs in addition to the medical degree, and are published in major medical journals. I've read their CVs - they are a couple dozen pages long. WIth few exceptions, they introduce themselves or sign emails to me as "Wendy, Dan, Mike, etc. (their first names, only)." I am not their peer by any means. Or even my own personal physicians almost always introduce themselves by their first name.

The president of our HOA, who sends us emails weekly, never fails to include "Dr. Bob" in his title and signature. We aren't communicating on a professional level, we happen to be neighbors. Or on twitter, the bios/names often are "Dr. Jane Joe" or "Dr. Sally Smith" as opposed to "Sally Smith, PhD."

Don't get me wrong. I don't discount the amount of work it takes to be a PhD. I have never tried. And when in their classrooms in high school or college, I greeted my PhD teachers as Dr. Whatever, for that is the area which their doctorate applies. But if I have a questions about my HOA dues, I'm not going to title an email Dear Dr. Bob.

(I already regret posting this)

 

Dr. Bob, more like Dr. Douchecanoe.

 

What for?

 

For making generalizations that dont always apply about whining about things that dont matter.

 

<shrug>
I would think your throat clearing at the beginning ("Random anecdotal observation") is sufficient to tamp down "generalization" accusations.

Though I can't guarantee that someone won't appear here and castigate you for being off-topic, or some sort of ideologue.

 

Wait a second.... I know you have been on this board long enough to know this is exactly what this board is about!

 

Depends on where you are too. I am careful when writing German speaking authors to make sure I write Herr (or Frau) Doktor Professor XXX. The culture is just more formal than ours--and it's a great honor if you are asked to be informal and on a first name basis (had that happen last year with a BDPh exec (stamp collecting), and I was quite honored). Mind you, that's far less true for the younger folk.

 

Actually one of my good buddies has been nicknamed "Dr. Bob" in our crowd (he's an MD). And he's a really laid back, fun guy (TBDBITL alum). But he doesn't sign himself that way.

 

In my experience, there is a great divide in Germany between the academics and those that are in non-academic positions. The formality is more reserved for the academics. I actually have cousins that won't talk to each other because of the different paths they took in school.

There is also a difference between them (cousins) in their actual language, the academics will only speak High German and my non-academic cousins tend to use more colloquial German.

The difference between the two was large enough that my HS German teacher, who taught High German, wasn't able to speak with my Oma who grew up in a tiny farming village in Bavaria.

One of my good friends is a dentist and we all call him "doc".

And he loves it.

And he also thinks his opinion is beyond reproach.

 

I was in a little town in the Black Forest--the ancestral home of my great grandfather Schuler's family. I speak pretty fluent German--but at the small Gasthaus we were staying at I had no trouble understanding the owner. His father? Not so much (and we were all sitting around with beers watching Schalke in the champions league). Badisch is almost another language.

This was before the days of universal WiFi, so I had to use their computer to get on line--the keyboard was Badisch. Made it interesting. Much was the same--some letters weren't.

 

I find it interesting some of those so worried about the persecution of those not knelling now, were not so quick to worry the same for those initially knelling years ago. Along the same lines, those complaining about some arrogant, wrong or downright bad members of the science community, likely would not make the same stance against the arrogant, wrong or downright bad members wearing blue. Many want it both ways to fit their slanted view, but that doesn't happen in the political climate today.

 

I don't know about anyone else, but I've consistently been a critic of the state of criminal justice and policing.

But most of all, I'm not sure how "science" and "police" constitute a binary here.

 

It's the black and white thinking these days.

But I'll note that you'd not expect a cop to tell you what is wrong with your health (unless an EMT) or to make science claims but some scientists have no problems assuming that their opinion on a lot of issues is somehow more valid due to their Ph.D.

 

Are people being persecuted for bell ringing??