USMNT All-Time Record

Roger,

I think we are all in agreement that the US Soccer Media Guide is the definitive reference for the task at hand, and grateful to Jim Moorhouse for his leadership in making the guide what it is today. I am sure Sachin means no offense. It is just that from a fan's perspective it is a little frustrating that USSF puts such great effort into making a guide for the media, but so little effort in communicating the information to the wider public. While I suspect the media guide may still have a handful of errors, the HOF website is riddled with hundreds of them, and while I am slogging through trying to correct them all, I can't help but think that I am re-doing a lot of the work that went into creating the media guide in the first place. But thats OK, I accept the challenge. Accuracy aside, the Media Guide gets updated every year, but the Hall of Fame website hasn't been updated since August 2005.

Speaking of the Media Guide, what line-ups does it give for the matches @ HAI on 10/20/68, vs BER on 9/9/73, and @ POR on 9/20/78?

 

I'm still working on mine, it will be a few more days at least, then we can compare. How did you decide to handle the three matches where it is unclear whether the HOF or RSSSF lineups are correct?

Edit: looks like you went with RSSSF.

 

I've completed the first draft of my list. For comparison purposes, I propose to start by just looking at the players who have been capped and see if we agree on those. The only discrepancies I see are as follows:

1) RSSSF has it spelled both ways, but I believe the correct spelling is Bayardo Abaunza.

http://www.weltfussball.de/spieler_profil/bayardo-abaunza/

2) I have R. Allen, Jr. with 1 cap on 6/10/28 @ POL. HOF lists Allen, RSSSF lists Robert Aitken.

3) Both HOF and RSSSF have it wrong, but I believe the correct spelling is Robert Burkhard.

See 1952 olympic roster at this link:

http://www.ussoccer.com/News/Articl...ary-Articles-Soccer-Wire-Decades-1950-59.aspx

4) HOF has Henry O'Carroll listed in the lineups, Henry Carroll in the player registry. I believe Carroll is correct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Carroll_(soccer)

5) I believe the correct spelling is Efrain Chacurian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efrain_Chacurian

6) I believe the correct spelling is William Demko.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Demko

7) Both HOF and RSSSF have the spelling as Dan Droege.

8) US soccer lists him as Torres, Jose Francisco so irrespective of FIFA, I plan to stick with that.

http://www.ussoccer.com/Teams/US-Men/Player-Pool/2009-Player-Pool.aspx

9) I believe the Garcia with 2 caps is not Robert but Jose "Poli" Garcia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poli_Garcia

10) I believe the correct spelling is Joseph Krische.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Krische

11) I believe the correct spelling is Ilija Mitic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilija_Mitić

12) I believe the correct spelling is Jimmy McAlister.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_McAlister_(American_soccer)

13) I believe the correct spelling is Tommy McFarlane

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_McFarlane

14) I believe the correct spelling is Helmut Michel rather than Michael.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmut_Michel

15) I believe the correct spelling is Frank Moniz rather than Muniz.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Moniz

16) I believe the correct spelling is Rob Olson rather than Olsen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Olson

17) We agree that Rob Rooney had 2 caps, but you also have 1 cap listed for Bob Rooney, for whom I cannot find anything on either the HOF or USSSF websites.

18) I believe the correct spelling is Steve Sengelmann.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Sengelmann

19) I believe the correct spelling is Kevin Welsh rather than Walsh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Welsh

That's it! I'll spare you the ugly details of all the misspellings in my list that I corrected using yours.

Let me know your thoughts on #'s 2) and 17). Tomorrow I will begin going through the cap totals and see what discrepancies I find.

 

I had Burkard originally, because that's what the HOF website has. Looking at his Wikipidia entry, it is spelled Burkard twice and Burkhard once. After digging into this more, I am inclined to go with the listings on the St. Louis HOF site - if you were being inducted into a HOF and they had your name wrong, you would let them know, right?! - so "Bob Burkard" and "Bob Rooney" it is.

This is another case where outside of the HOF listing of Allen and the RSSSF listing of Aitken, I don't have any additional information to swing me either way. Roger's book also lists Aitken, so let me try to ping him again and see if he can shed any light on the lineup for this match.

 

FIFA.com has a roster for the US team which includes Aitken but not Allen:

http://www.fifa.com/tournaments/arch...eam=43921.html

and from his Wikipedia profile, it seems that Robert Aitken was also a Jr., lending credence to the theory that Allen is a typo:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Aitken_(soccer)

I'm inclined to agree with you on this one and go with R. Aitken, Jr.

 

I have completed a first pass through the cap counts, and note the following discrepancies:

Code:

ScIce	NoSix	
2	3	Calichman, Dan
2	3	Child, Paul
1	2	Cooper, Harry
5	6	Counce, Daniel
7	6	DeLong, Gary
6	7	Etherington, Gary
2	3	Feher, Sandy
2	1	Ford, James
17	18	Fowles, Colin
16	15	Grgurev, Fred
11	10	Nanchoff, George
12	11	Nanchoff, Louis
17	18	Villa, Greg

1) Calichman - the discrepancy appears to be due to a likely RSSSF omission, correct on HOF, of Calichman's sub for Kirovski on 1/19/97

2) Child - due to a likely HOF omission, correct on RSSSF, of Child's sub for Panek on 8/10/73

3) Cooper vs Ford - on 9/3/16, HOF lists Cooper as starting, RSSSF lists Ford. Unclear which is correct.

4) Counce - due to a likely HOF omission, correct on RSSSF, of Counce's sub for Hoffman on 8/10/73

5) DeLong vs Feher - on 10/20/68, HOF lists Feher as starting, RSSSF lists DeLong. Roger Allaway has a Haitian newspaper story that includes a reference to "le gardien americain Feher" giving up two goals in the space of a few minutes. Based on that additional evidence, likely HOF correct, RSSSF error.

6) Etherington - both HOF and RSSSF agree Etherington has 7 caps

7) Fowles - apparently due to two different discrepancies between HOF and RSSSF. One is due to a likely RSSSF omission, correct on HOF, of Fowles's sub for Etherington on 9/15/77. On 9/18/77, HOF lists Fowles and Ralbovsky as subs but not Donlic, RSSSF lists Donlic as a sub but not Fowles or Ralbovsky. Unclear which is correct. This also introduces two new players with potential discrepancies: Ralbovsky and Donlic.

8) Ralbovsky - apparently due to RSSSF omission, correct on HOF, of Ralbovsky sub for Flater on 9/18/77.

9) Donlic - both HOF and RSSSF have Donlic with 7 caps, but disagree on the dates. HOF has Donlic not appearing on 9/18/77 and subbing on for Flater on 9/25/77; RSSSF has Donlic subbing on for Villa on 9/18/77 and not appearing on 9/25/77. Not clear which is correct.

10) Grgurev - HOF has Grgurev with 14 caps, RSSSF with 15, due to HOF listing Grgurev as not appearing on 9/9/73, and RSSSF listing him as starting. Roger has a Hartford Courant story with a lineup which lists Brewster as having been a sub, in which case Grgurev must have started. Based on that additional evidence, likely RSSSF correct, HOF error.

11) George Nanchoff - both HOF and RSSSF agree that George Nanchoff has 10 caps.

12) Louis Nanchoff vs Villa - on 9/20/78 HOF lists Villa starting, while RSSSF lists Nanchoff. Unclear which is correct. Roger has a Portuguese newspaper story which he described as a slightly different lineup to the HOF one. Need to follow up with him to find out if the differences involve Nanchoff or Villa.

That's it. Please let me know your feedback once you have had a chance to review.

 

The starting line-up in the Portuguese paper includes Nanchoff and is identical to RSSSF, except it lists Pollihan as a starter, while RSSSF has Makowski. No listing of the subs, but pending further research I'm inclined to go with the RSSSF line-up for now. Thanks again, Roger!

 

I think that leaves 9/3/16 and 9/18/77 as the matches still up in the air. Whether Donlic subbed in to the 9/18/77 or the 9/25/77 match would be nice to know, but will not affect the cap counts.

As I indicated in my last post, for the 9/20/78 match we have an RSSSF lineup and a Portuguese newspaper report with almost identical starting lineups, and a HOF lineup with 4 completely different starters. I would argue that tilts the evidence in favor of the RSSSF lineup being the correct one, and assume RSSSF is more reliable than the paper in identifying Makowski rather than Pollihan.

The reason is that I noted the HOF lineup is likely incorrect, but neglected to change it in my list. That would make 16 for Grgurev.

 

Missed this post the first time. Unfortunately, this is for the Olympic match vs. Argentina. Both HOF and RSSSF agree Aitken started that one. The question is who played in the next match, a friendly against POL. Since, according to FIFA, Allen was apparently not on the traveling roster, I'm assuming it was Aitken.

 

scaryice,

Quick update. I emailed Roger about the remaining matches for which we are unclear on the lineups, but he is at the NSCAA convention this week, so response may be delayed. I will also do some digging this weekend to see what I can find. Roger did talk to Tony DiCicco and confirm that he made a brief substitute appearance in the 9/9/1973 match at Hartford, as we have assumed.

In the meanwhile, I have been updating the data structure of my spreadsheet. Previously it was a bit of a mess, with a lot of manual cutting and pasting necessary to get data. Now it is set up so I just paste the lineup into the first column and the final stats pop out at the end; pretty slick if I do say so myself. As an example of what it can do, here are individual player stats for the USA under Bob Bradley (2007-2009):

Code:

GP	GS	G	MIN	PLAYER
38	36	7	3156	Bradley, M.
36	35	17	3073	Donovan
37	37	11	3024	Dempsey
34	34	4	2957	Onyewu
34	34	5	2940	Bocanegra
32	32	0	2700	Howard
28	24	5	2090	Beasley
26	23	2	2090	Bornstein
23	21	0	1917	Pearce
26	21	2	1895	Clark, R.
30	19	2	1732	Feilhaber
23	18	6	1535	Ching
20	16	0	1458	Spector
23	16	8	1429	Altidore
19	18	1	1428	Cherundolo
21	12	3	1163	Kljestan
19	12	3	1102	Johnson, E.
14	10	0	1080	Guzan
16	11	0	1067	DeMerit
15	14	0	1017	Mastroeni
13	9	2	927	Hejduk
17	9	4	825	Davies
11	8	2	757	Holden
10	9	1	740	Conrad
14	7	2	707	Adu
10	6	0	658	Califf
9	7	1	654	Rogers
11	6	0	624	Edu
10	6	1	616	Beckerman
8	6	0	596	Parkhurst
6	6	0	570	Marshall, C.
6	6	0	570	Perkins
11	6	1	526	Twellman, Ta.
8	4	1	501	Goodson
6	5	0	495	Keller
5	5	0	450	Moor
5	5	0	426	Pause
10	4	2	422	Lewis
7	4	0	406	Mapp
4	4	0	390	Heaps
9	4	2	360	Casey, Con.
7	4	1	348	Arnaud
10	2	4	339	Cooper, K.
3	3	0	270	Wynne
5	2	0	226	Simek
4	2	0	225	Convey
6	2	0	222	Rolfe
7	2	0	214	Torres
4	2	1	195	Quaranta
4	2	0	185	Wolff
2	2	0	180	Corrales
2	2	0	178	Boswell
3	2	0	162	Thorrington
2	2	0	131	Olsen
3	1	0	130	Ralston
2	2	0	129	Albright
3	1	0	129	Evans, Br.
2	1	0	100	Cronin
1	1	0	90	Orozco
1	1	0	90	Reis
1	1	0	90	Robles
3	0	0	88	Gaven
3	1	0	79	Szetela
1	1	0	75	Clark, C.
1	1	0	71	Davis, B.
2	1	1	69	Cunningham
2	1	0	67	Gomez
1	1	0	65	Razov
1	1	0	62	Noonan
2	1	0	47	Jaqua
1	1	0	45	Hahnemann
1	1	1	45	Robinson
2	0	0	44	Hill
3	0	0	41	Nguyen
3	0	0	39	Carroll, B.
2	0	0	35	Mullan
1	0	0	30	Castillo
2	0	0	30	McCarty, D.
1	0	0	28	Namoff
1	0	0	23	Gros
1	0	0	17	W. Barrett
1	0	0	15	Zizzo
1	0	0	12	Wingert
1	0	0	11	Marsch
1	0	0	10	White
1	0	0	9	Ihemelu
1	0	0	6	Barrett, C.
1	0	0	1	Findley

Here GP is games played (caps), GS is games started, G is goals, and MIN is minutes played.

 

No, I've never used the lookup commands in Excel. What would be the advantage that you would see for them?

 

Sorry for being incommunicado for a while – I’ve been buried up to my eyeballs in US MNT stats – HOF stats, RSSSF stats, ussoccer.com stats, you name it. I will begin posting the fruits of my labor shortly, but I had to take a break from error checking to post something surprising that I encountered in my research.

Every USA fan knows that Landon Donovan is our all-time leading scorer with 42 goals and 42 assists in 120 caps, right? ussoccer.com even says so:

But if you add up Donovan’s career totals from ussoccer.com’s match reports over the years, you get 42 goals and 43 assists.

The discrepancy appears to have arisen in 2004, when according to the match reports, Donovan tallied 6 assists on the year. The 2004 year-end statistical summary (which regrettably vanished when the new website debuted) credits him with only 5. The match reports survive, and here are the relevant excerpts:

The only even remotely questionable case is the assist to Cobi Jones for the last gasp, game-tying goal vs. Panama on 9/9/2004. The closest thing I could find to the definition of an international assist is the following definition from the 1990 FIFA Technical Study Group:

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/afdeveloping/techdevp/fwc_italy_1990_a_part6_273.pdf

Criteria 2-6 clearly do not apply to Donovan’s situation (the ball went directly from Donovan to Jones, so no rebound was involved), but in my opinion Donovan should be credited with an assist under criterion 1 – whether he intended to pass or shoot, the result of his play was that possession was transferred from Donovan to Jones, who immediately scored. Perhaps a strict constructionist would argue that only the last pass to the eventual goal scorer, not a squib-pass-cum-shot, qualifies for an assist, but criterion 3 is an existence proof that a shot can qualify for an assist, so that point appears moot.

Who's with me that the real number should be 43?!

 

Wouldn't surprise me either, but in this particular case I see no justification for doing so.

 

Why, because it is not a country? Donovan didn't tally any goals or assists against Martinique, in any case.

 

scaryice,

Let's finish up the cap count.

I found one more misspelling. You can find it both ways, but again from the St. Louis HOF website, it appears it should be Matt Diederichsen rather than Diedrichsen.

Recapping the remaining unclear games:

1) 9/3/1916 @NOR - HOF lists Cooper, RSSSF lists Ford, Allaway(1995) lists Ford.

2) 9/18/1977 @ GUA - All sources have the same starting lineup, but HOF lists the subs as Bellinger for McAlister, Pereira for R. Davis, Fowles for Mihailovich, and Rabolvsky for Flater, while RSSSF and Allaway list the subs as Bellinger for Mihailovich, Donlic for Villa, and Pereira for G. Nanchoff.

3) 9/25/1977 @ GUA - Again all sources have the same starting lineup, but HOF lists the subs as Mihailovich for Fowles, Donlic for Flater, and G. Nanchoff for Villa, while RSSSF and Allaway list the subs as Periera for Villa, and G. Nanchoff for Etherington.

Regarding 1), Roger has a copy of an article from Morgenbladet of Oslo that lists Ford, and copies of the "Bill Graham guides" from 1948 to 1970, which list Ford. The preponderance of the evidence supports Ford.

Regarding 2) and 3), I have spent a lot of time searching without finding a single English newspaper article on either match. Short of finding a Guatemalan newspaper report, or visiting the USSF archives in Chicago, what we are left with is 2 sources with one lineup and 1 source with a different one, so again I am inclined to go with RSSSF.

Pending any further evidence, that should wrap things up. Since you inspired this effort originally, perhaps you would like to post the final cap count.