Very true, for a lot of people sports is more about highlights, banter, and the players lives off the field than it is the actual matches and clubs. But if you're the USL you'd be pretty dumb to make that the center of your marketing strategy. Not saying you ignore it, it is 2025, but your not going to break through when someone can watch highlights from hundreds of games around the the world involving, let's be honest, better and more famous players. So I think it does make sense to go the other way. To say we are the league for the supporters who actually go to every home match, and experience it "IRL" not just on their social media feeds. And pro/rel could be part of a wider marketing strategy of saying they are the more "authentic" league. I don't know if it will work, and as you have said it is a big risk. But I think it makes sense as part of a wider strategy to differentiate themselves from MLS.
Yeah a S*** load of people don't care. Not saying pro/rel will automatically change that. But it does offer a chance for supporters to stay engaged with the team for the whole season. And to be able to experience the narratives of ups and downs in a way that is unique to the US professional sports. You don't need to lecture me about the popularity of American football. But since you are an expert you know that in the 1960's baseball was much bigger than the NFL. And even college football was bigger in most places. While yes I agree that the appeal of the sport as a whole has helped the NFL, the NFL also took a variety of explicit steps to make the NFL specifically, not just American Football, the number one sport in the US.
How does pro/rel keep fans engaged? From back when we were actually looking into these things, it was noted that teams in the relegation zone saw their attendances drop as the season went on and attendance dropped even further the next season after they were relegated. People just don't like watching bad teams... I could see a team that is on either side of the relegation zone at the end of the season having some excitement as there is the drama of "will they stay up, or will they go down", but for teams that are deep in the relegation zone, is someone going to care to watch their team losing over and over just because they are going to get relegated?
A huge part of the NFL's rise in popularity is the easily accessible Fantasy Football (AKA a form of Legalized Gambling back in the day). People stay engaged and care about players on every team because of Fantasy Football. Especially if you're a fan of a team that is suffering through a period of suck. Like myself and my friends who are lifelong Bills fans. Up un til 2019 we didn't have a whole lot to look forward to every season. Fantasy Football helped fill that void and kept out interest in the season up. No other sport in America or in the world has that, at least at the level of popularity and participation that the NFL does.
Would you rather go to a game with nothing riding on it or something riding on it? If your market has a team at a lower level would you be more interested in the team if the games you were going to could result to them moving up to a higher level? I know what I think. I know my own experiences with the Padres and Aztecs in the 2010's. Both would have been easier to be engaged with if we had pro/rel in the US. But again maybe I am the only one. But we finally have some people willing to try it with real actual money. Not just a bunch of us yelling online. So regardless if you love it or think it's terrible there are obviously people looking at it who think it could work. I said that exact thing as well in a previous post although in fewer words.
It's pro-rel, not pro-pro. We don't really know how Americans will react to the threat of relegation.
The example I gave was for a team that is being relegated, not a team being promoted. Outside of towards the end of the season for a team that is on the edge of the relegation zone For teams in the promotion race, those teams are already playing well, so, by default, are more entertaining to watch for fans and are more likely to attract fans to their games. Also, for a lot of leagues, we know that just having promotion is not enough to drive interest in teams.. How do we know this? Because they have promotion playoffs. That pushes the interest value of promotion further down the standings. All of that being said, as Paul said in his post. We have no idea how Americans will react to pro/rel. Outside of a few hardcore soccer fans that follow the game in other countries, pro/rel is an entirely new concept. There very well could be a collective shrug, it could be the best thing since peanut butter and jelly were first spread together on bread, or anything in between....
Oops. forgot to finish out this sentence... Outside of towards the end of the season for a team that is on the edge of the relegation zone (and maybe the other team), where's the draw for a "casual" fan to come to a game to watch their team get crushed?
Yeah, same as what's the draw for a casual fan to turn up to a game for a team teetering on the brink of making/missing the playoffs?
I always wonder that myself where these people come up with that claim. Basically saying "I want to continue supporting my club that is playing bad but want to see till the end if they don't get relegated". Isn't that similar to supporting your club that is doing bad all season but still has a chance to make the play offs and isn't decided till the last game of regular season? Both are playing for something but supposedly it only matters if you have ProRel because "something". For example in the current MLS season, let's assume the season ends this weekend. Last game. Under the MLS standard way of doing things RBNY and New England have a chance to get into the play offs and Charlotte, NYCFC and Chicago could be out of play offs if certain results happen. On the other Conference same thing; Houston and FC Dallas could get into the play offs and Colorado, San Jose and Austin could be out of the play offs if certain results happen in the last game. Plus add those that are deep on play off zones that will want to get higher up the table to have the advantage of hosting games and a possible final at home. You have 4 teams in each Conference playing for nothing in the last game of season or a total of 8 in the entire league playing for nothing that last game. If we had ProRel and did it the English way, but before I start we must go by PLS rules which require a certain amount of teams in different time zone. So Conference must stay balanced because we can't have too many on the East coast or too many on the West coast. So Conferences stay. The Relegation battle if we did it the English way; LA Galaxy would've know weeks back they were cooked and in the last game SKC, STL and RSL are involved to be that 2nd team. Over on the other Conference, Montreal is cooked. And ATL, TFC and DC are involved to be that 2nd team relegated. For the MLS Champion it will be 4 teams playing for the title in that last game if we go by SS; Philly, Cincinnati, Vancouver and Columbus. Everyone else in the middle of table have nothing to play for. Most were done weeks back, safe from relegation and out of reach of the title race. A total of 18 teams with nothing to play for if done the English way.
It's kind of a feedback loop. The first fantasy sport introduced to a mass audience was baseball, but the NFL version became more popular because the NFL was more popular.
Fantasy football is more accessible to the masses than rotisserie league baseball. It's much less of a time commitment. Plus it's essentially one game day a week which makes it more of a social gathering/experience than fantasy baseball. A whole industry has been created around Fantasy Football. It's not a feedback loop either. Fantasy Football, and it's rise in popularity has been a huge driver of the NFL's success and popularity. Non-sports fans play fantasy football. There are office leagues, family leagues, etc. Outside of March Madness bracket pools, what other sport/league has this?
I want USL to be a successful league. I just think they are doing too much at once. D1 and Pro/Rel. Owners would have Voted No if they didn't offer D1.
You introduce cups - USOC, league cup with just MLS teams, cup vs liga mx teams, Ireland also plays a summer schedule, transatlantic cup.... Hell, make a cup for the 5-8 from each conference to determine who gets to host the all star game the following year...
IMO USL's announcements were a response to two key issues that they face: 1.) Their key markets want to be in MLS (Sacramento, Las Vegas, Indianapolis, Phoenix, etc.) 2.) The USL isn't going to grow into a much more profitable and sustainable business unless they do something to make themselves a marketable alternative to MLS. While a few teams have built and are building stadiums and infrastructure, there are others that are struggling to get their projects moving forward. Introducing a Division 1 League, and promotion/relegation between leagues provides the USL with a platform to sell to new investors. These new investors will help get the infrastructure projects off of the ground and completed. Which in turn will allow the USL to produce a better onfield product, and fan experience. This will ultimately lead to a sustainable USL. Also, get ready for the true believers who are blackout drunk on the Pro/Rel Koolaid to be upset, and to crap all over this. The Ben Fast;s of the world are going to hate it. Why? Simply because they believe if US Soccer simply implements Pro?rel at all levels and integrates the entire "pyramid" that a blank checks worth of investment will suddenly flow into the game. In turn making Soccer the most popular sport America. That's what they believe.
I think McDonough just wants to make a name for himself. A bit like Davidson at NASL but hopefully a bit less competitive and a lot less corrupt. They've been complaining on twatter since USL announced it. The people who think that soccer in the US will be just like England if there's an open pyramid don't seem to be aware that it England 99 years and every step along the way was motivated by $€£¥. They also ignore the fact that the Football League was pretty much semi-pro until 1961 with a maximum salary of about $15k a year in today's money.
Here’s the flaw I see in your hypothetical. Making the playoffs when 18 teams make it is very low stakes compared to relegation. If we were talking, say, 8 teams in the league making the playoffs, that’s a better comp.
The only reason people are still watching the Premier League with interest this season is the race for UCL spots. The championship and relegation races were over weeks ago. We don't have anything like that. The only problem I have with the MLS playoffs at the moment is the 3 match first round. I like home team advantage and it's working well so far. I think reducing it below 8 teams per conference would make the league less interesting. The wild card can go.
The feedback loop I mentioned is that NFL-based fantasy football became popular because the NFL was already big, and then it serves as a way to keep certain fans engaged and bring in new fans, helping to maintain and grow the fanbase.
A funny thing for me is that when I first started following European soccer pro/rel wasn’t something that immediately stood out to me as a major difference. Stuff like no playoffs to crown the league champion and sorting through all the different competitions and trophies are what really caught my attention. By the time I found out about pro/rel it struck me as a minor structural difference rather than the line that separates authentic soccer from inauthentic.
See my previous post where I say that exact thing although in We'll found out but I've found that there are more similarities between British and American fans than differences. And it sounds like you are almost saying British supporters are more dedicated than American ones. Agree with all of this accept for the last paragraph. Because you don't know that your team is going to be crushed until they get crushed. It's sports. Teams change teams evolve teams get better. And the thing about relegation is it doesn't take much improvement to see yourself moving up to an attenable target. It's not like their aren't shitty teams in a closed league. The difference now is your shitty team actually has something to play for. My perfect playoff scenario currently would be ten teams. 6 auto qualifiers 8 widlcards but 8 works too. Don't like that over half the teams get in. As a casual fan I didn't like the playoff format but hopefully will get a chance to see how it works as a partisan in October.
Except, if your team is in the relegation zone, you pretty much do know that your team is going to get crushed. There's a reason why they are in the relegation zone.
It's the way it is right now. If it were up to me I'll keep it at 7 teams. I liked that format. But I was going off by what they have now and fans currently are engaged if your team is in that zone of getting into the play offs. Do fans care if it's low stakes if your team makes it in 9th?