USL Referees 2021

Discussion in 'Referee' started by gaolin, Jul 13, 2021.

  1. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I figured someone like @MassachusettsRef would come in and reply because I thought it was such a clear red that I was surprised to see the first poster have doubt.

    This is an auto fail on an upgrade assessment level miss.
     
    kolabear, frankieboylampard and gaolin repped this.
  2. Midwest Ref

    Midwest Ref Member

    Jul 25, 2002
    Agree with @MassachusettsRef here. This is clear cut DOGSO for me. His is in on goal all alone if the defender does not foul him.
     
  3. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    This miss is reason #958 as to why Guardia never made it in the middle as an MLS referee.
     
  4. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Any average state/regional referee should get this decision right let alone some one who has been a national referee for over 10 years and has traveled around the country doing games at all levels.
     
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  5. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If we are talking about that defender on the top of the screen, he's not getting to the attacker even if he has Alphoso Davies' speed. I know we aren't supposed to judge based on a still, but there is simply no way that's anything other than a DOGSO red.
     
  6. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    This is what flabbergasted me when I was doing a Tactical foul vs. DOGSO webinar a while back. There were a few video clips that the referee coach showed that he concluded were DOGSO, which using the advantage of slow motion and him doing a freeze frame on the moment of the foul and with his explanation I could see it was. But they weren't the typical "clear and obvious" DOGSO fouls we are used to like this one, they were the ones where defenders were around and you had to start analyzing their speed and position, ability to recover and all that.

    I didn't want to ask him this, but I wanted to ask him how the heck would it be humanly possible for us as regular refs, at full speed, possibly not in perfect position probably stuck behind a bit, to be able to see the foul happen, what player did it, and analyzing the personnel portion of the 4 Ps with defenders position, speed, etc, all within a few seconds without the benefit of VAR, and actually have the balls to give a red card for it and be able to justify it to everyone on the field.
     
  7. GoDawgsGo

    GoDawgsGo Member+

    Nov 11, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Instinct and awareness. You've either played the game at a decent level for a long time, or you haven't.
     
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  8. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    I don't agree that having played is the solution. Some former players make great referees, and some don't; some who never played have trouble developing the instincts, and some others develop brilliant ones.

    I think the reality is that DOGSO with VAR and DOGSO without are very different in some of the elements you can truly parse. That said, what I have found useful is not trying to decide if there was an OGSO after I've called a foul, but being aware of an OGSO developing and processing that as challenge is likely to take place--more or less the same way an AR is always processing whether someone is in OSP. YMMV.
     
  9. gaolin

    gaolin Member+

    Apr 21, 2019
    #34 gaolin, Sep 26, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2021
    Drama continues in FC Tulsa vs Sporting KC II. Referee disallows game-winning goal after 5 minutes of talk because keeper got ball first.

    Referee Kevin Fikar was on his 7th USL Championship whistle.



     
  10. SoccerRefNova

    SoccerRefNova Member

    DC United
    Mexico
    Mar 27, 2018
    Well I'm going to say the defender got the ball first, not the keeper. Using the potato quality replay, it looks like the attacker took out the goal keeper once the defender tackled the ball away. I like taking this goal away.
     
  11. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    On first look with the above video, I was ready to pile on and say no way that's anything other than a foul by the goalkeeper. Having seen the better highlights, below, I would have been wrong. It is not a foul by the goalkeeper at all.

    Now, that being said, I don't love taking this goal away. Because the collision/foul has nothing to do with the ball going into the net. The collision is either inevitable based on the running trajectory of the two players OR the goalkeeper would have over-run the ball if the attacker had avoided him. The tackled ball goes straight to another attacker who slots the ball into an open net that the goalkeeper was never going to be covering anyway because he was always going to either be on the ground or 10 yards too far upfield. So, the collision had absolutely no ramifications on the end result of the play.

    Now, all that is nice to say and, I believe, factual. But the fact also remains that when a goalkeeper gets violently clattered into--even if it's 40%+ of his own doing--and ends up laid out on the ground while a ball gets rolled into an open net, not many people are going to expect the goal to count. So I can understand and accept the foul decision.

    I have no idea how they arrived at it and how it took 4+ minutes, but I would like to point out how readily the Tulsa captain accepts it in the video below. I know nothing else about Fikar, but this little clip demonstrates maturity and either strong man management or communication skills (or both). If he truly did say the keeper got the ball, yeah, that's a problem when your match is televised. But whatever he actually communicated on-field seemed to work. And in the vast majority of matches out there, that can be all that matters in a lot of situations.

    1:39 onward:



    I do wonder what happens here with VAR. You let the goal occur on the field, but then what? VAR can only send it down if the attacker has clearly fouled the goalkeeper. Is that standard met? Watching the video closely, I think it probably is. But it's close.

    On another note, this thread feels like it's a bunch of "hey, look how this lower professional division referee screwed up" posts. I get controversity is what gets attention, but it's a little disappointing we don't see any of the good performances from USL. Would be nice to highlight some of the solid work of referees on the cusp of breaking into MLS. Of course, I know that's easier said than done.
     
  12. gaolin

    gaolin Member+

    Apr 21, 2019
    @MassachusettsRef Great analysis -- as always and makes sense. It did catch my eye how readily Tulsa captain accepted given that it was nearing the end of the match AND a game-winning goal. Impressive all around. Of course, coach wasn't as happy but it happens.

    As for the thread -- yeah, I can what you mean. I suppose I merely post for people to break down how "controversial" calls are made. I watch more USL than MLS (because only USL team where I live) so I'll keep an eye out for more USL-positive refereeing.
     
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  13. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree that the sport generally expects the foul to be called when a defender cleanly tackles the ball and then the GK gets laid out. It's one of those situations that isn't fun to happen in your game, but I don't see it as that controversial.
     
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  14. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Spitballing here but… in the 4 minutes we don’t see, was the goalkeeper treated by a trainer at all? If he was, you are then essentially conceding there was a potential head injury. And if there was a head injury, play should have been stopped immediately.

    Now, that’s dropped ball over DFK, so I know that’s not what was called here. And I don’t like the idea of manufacturing a result based off a perceived injury (because of what it obviously encourages). But it’s another thing to keep in mind if people look at this and plan for something similar happening in one of their matches. You don’t have to call a foul here.
     
  15. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    I guess even as referees we fall into the "any referee who you don't notice, is doing their job well" rut. It's much easier (and faster) to see specific controversial calls (whether the ref got it right or wrong) than to watch an entire 90 minute match and analyze all of it
     
  16. chwmy

    chwmy Member+

    Feb 27, 2010
    Gosh haven’t we all done this? In this one the referee got wrong footed and was hopelessly out of position as well- i don’t know how far away he was (not in the screen at least) but the further away he was the more difficult it would have been to judge the position of the other defender.
     
  17. MetroFever

    MetroFever Member+

    Jun 3, 2001
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    I disagree. Whether it's Kolabear's NWSL thread or this USL thread, it gives those of us who don't watch these games as much a chance to learn since we're not watching them as much as we do MLS and other matches.

    If there was a wrong call when I see a clip, I wonder what I could have done differently if I face that same situation. It's a learning experience none of us get any longer in the recertifications. I think most, if not all all of the refs here (regardless of level and experience) realize they're doing a great job.

    I hope this doesn't prevent people from posting interesting clips in the future and promoting healthy discussions as this play did.
     
  18. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Your implication seems to be that we can't learn by observing professional-level referees do good/positive things.

    Regardless, we only disagree to an extent. I'm by no means suggesting we shouldn't be discussing controversial or poor calls (have you seen my track record of posting?!). It's just that with USL matches, there's very little traffic or discussion generally, so there's no real context for who is up and who is down and who is moving up. It sets an overall tone that USL officiating is poor and that individual referees aren't ready for the next level. But again, I totally understand why it is more challenging to highlight good decisions in a league that most don't regularly watch. So this is less than a constructive complaint from me and more of just a lamentation of reality.
     
  19. Thegreatwar

    Thegreatwar Member

    Seacoast United
    May 28, 2015
    New Hampshire
    Regarding this, several years ago I remember seeing Mark Allatin doing a game at my college and being super impressed (I also saw Ian Mckay working as a college center around that time and also thought he was good). I’ve only been able to watch him twice (not in person) in professional games since (once in USL-C and once in NWSL) and I liked his performance both times. However, he seems more like a law-enforcer type of referee who doesn’t ‘manage’ the players that much, which I think may count against him in terms of advancement.
     
  20. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Maybe there is another angle that conclusively proves this was a foul and that the referee, in fact, made a great call. I don't know.

    There is something to be learned about this clip and the English Championship clip of where the player just kicked the shit out of another player as he got in front of the ball.

    Make the expected the decision and make the decision that won't end up going viral on social media or leave everyone scratching their heads.

    If this goal is allowed, is anyone discussing this or complaining about the goal being allowed? Any fan, coach, player or message board referee? No.

    How many coaches would complain to the referee about this goal being allowed? Not one.

    The Laws of the Game specifically discuss "what football expects." Everyone expects this to be a goal.

    We are seeing more and more examples of referees just overthinking things and not making decisions that football expects and not having a feel for the game.

    We can debate that ridiculous clip in the English Championship all day long and discuss whether it was good refereeing or match management, but if the referee produces the red card there the clip doesn't go viral and we never discuss this and it is not on the Sky Sports twitter feed.
     
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  21. gaolin

    gaolin Member+

    Apr 21, 2019
    In tonight's El Paso Locomotive vs San Antonio game... any time the SA gk took a goal-kick.... there was a loud "********" shouted and heard every time.

    The referee did absolutely nothing. I'm guessing they've given up?
     
  22. MetroFever

    MetroFever Member+

    Jun 3, 2001
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia


    This play was ultimately ruled a corner kick, even though the free kick had been played to a teammate.
     
  23. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What in the...

    The ref saw the quick FK taken and then took a position upfield.
     
  24. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I was coming her to post this, mainly to say I've never seen a ref use the spray foam to keep players away from a discussion with the AR.
     
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  25. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The restart being a corner kick tells us exactly what the crew has ruled. That the team kicked a FK directly into their own goal.

    I went back to watch the whole thing again on ESPN+ because the body language of the players was odd. But there was no whistle and no evidence that the players didn't think the ball was in play. I just don't know how four experienced refs came up with what they did.
     
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