News: USL Partners with HOK on Stadium Initiative

Discussion in 'United Soccer Leagues' started by kenntomasch, May 13, 2015.

  1. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, this certainly is noteworthy.

    Ambitious. Necessary. Expensive.

    I'm not sure, exactly, where the money is going to come from for 10-12 (or more) soccer stadiums in the next five years, but you have to actually speak a goal out loud before you can accomplish it, I reckon.
     
  2. SoccerPrime

    SoccerPrime Moderator
    Staff Member

    All of them
    Apr 14, 2003
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ambitious is an understatement.

    I wonder if richer team owners are subsidizing poorer ones or maybe MLS is involved (same thing I suppose).
     
  3. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    Not just new stadiums. New stadiums plus upgrades to existing ones.
    As I read it, this is the league as a whole subsidizing the design and planning costs of new and upgraded stadiums.

    So it wouldn't surprise me if the league as a whole subsidized the stadium costs as well.

    At the same time, I think we should remember that we're not talking MLS stadiums here. We're talking bare-bones 5,000+ stadiums, not decked-out 20,000+ stadiums.
     
  4. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Okay, then.

    I am not sure the league has that sort of money. Are you? They dropped the national TV contract one year into the three-year deal after cost overruns.

    Look at how many stadiums we are talking about here. That is A LOT of money. Even if, as you point out...

    I don't think bare bones works (at least not everywhere). Let's say Sacto wasn't going anywhere for the long term. You'd know better, and God bless the fact they are in their own yard instead of a baseball or junior college field, but would Bonney be adequate if SRFC had to live in it long-term? And how much did it cost?

    If small markets could get something like a Blackbaud or a Highmark (though the former is big enough, while the latter is not), that would be great.

    But that's still multiple millions of dollars. And Highmark - as an example - has not been a financial panacea.

    Saying you will pay to plan and build a stadium is great. But it's not always that simple to do. Here in Arizona, where are you going to put it? Where is Wilmington going to put one?

    If there were no expansion teams between now and the end of the decade, you are still looking at, minimum, 10 new stadiums and several upgrades (sometimes to stadiums the teams don't control). It's still A LOT of money.

    I applaud the initiative. I think it's mission critical, just like it was for MLS in the early part of the century. I am just not sure it is as simple as USL bankrolling it.

    I can see HOK doing them a decent deal. The stadium business in this country HAS to be slowing down, if you look at how many stadiums have been built in the last 20 years in all sports. Lower level soccer may be a frontier for them.

    But it CANNOT be inexpensive.
     
  5. El Duderino

    El Duderino Member

    Nov 29, 2006
    They built a new minor league baseball park in my hometown a few years back with 4000 seats. It isn't bare-bones, but definitely doesn't have much in the way of bells and whistles and it was $12 million.

    How that relates to these potential stadiums I don't know, but you won't get a nice 5000 stadium for cheap.
     
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  6. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    SRFC is so exceptional in the USL, that it doesn't make sense to talk about them in this context. 1. They're going to MLS. 2. They're unlike any other USL team in terms of their attendance. As I see it, there's really no point including them in this discussion or using them as an example. In effect, SRFC is an MLS team that still happens to play in the USL. That's not true of any other team.

    Better examples, I think, are teams like Colorado, which needs a bigger stadium, and maybe your case of Arizona.
    You are conflating subsidizing with bankrolling.

    Here's my assumption: USL is forging this deal with HOK to make it easier for USL clubs to build or expand their stadiums. How might that work?

    Well, one obvious way is to have HOK define a set of USL stadium best design practices. Maybe HOK could even design a basic USL cookie-cutter stadium template for new construction. (Maybe that design could even be modular.) There's a lot of ways that a league-wide design deal with HOK could lower the costs for new stadiums and stadium renovations around the league. The design needs for all these stadiums is very similar. Those costs could be spread among the league and owners. (And, really, is anyone in the USL going to care if a lot of stadiums are really similar? Nope.) That's what I suspect is going on here.
     
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  7. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    All of that is absolutely true.

    But where I think there is a somewhat valid comparison is that Bonney is a "bare bones" (ish) stadium that was constructed fairly quickly. Would they have done it that way if we weren't in the climate we are today, where lower-level clubs can aspire to get to MLS within a few years? I don't know, you tell me. But that's just an example of the type of stadium (if not the type of club) we're talking about here.

    Bonney cost, what, $3M? And, again, I have no idea, I'm sure it's fine for this pre-MLS environment for them. But if it weren't, if they weren't just living in temp digs until, would a $3M stadium be reasonable? Would it work? Will anyone who puts up a $3M stadium with no frills be forced by the almost inevitable change in economics of the game to put up another one in 8 years?

    I don't know.

    My point was again, that these things are expensive even if done in a spartan way.

    I don't know that Colorado Springs needs a bigger stadium when they have yet to prove they can pack people into the one they have, but I could certainly see them needing a more robust one at some point.

    That's fair. So it's still a lot of money, but slightly less than just paying for the whole nut.

    My guess is you're right. Now, given how people lost their shit when they thought every single adidas MLS uniform was going to be cookie-cutter, I can imagine the complaints from some about the idea of every new stadium looking the same, but, to be fair, unless you're going to put in a windmill or a spire or a feature like Wembley, there are only so many ways to surround a rectangle with seats.

    I would imagine USL may have said to HOK, "Okay, look. You've helped build so much stuff in the last 30 years, but that's slowing down now. Everybody already has their stadiums. We can guarantee you a bunch of work designing and helping implement stadium solutions for up to 20 teams over the next 5-8 years, so in exchange for that, you cut a package deal and we'll make it simple for you and not ask for Sporting Park or something like that."

    I could see that.

    So the normal HOK fee for all that is substantially lower, but in a relative sense, the people who are paying weren't exactly able to pay HOK's normal fees anyway, so it's still expensive for them. (But potentially do-able.) That's the design stage. USL kicks in...I don't know what the percentage would be, but a certain amount of money to a pool from which teams could draw OR they do something similar to the NFL's stadium loan fund.

    But, again, we're talking several million dollars. Probably tens of millions, even if ( a ) HOK cuts them a deal and ( b ) they're only building small stadiums (Highmark cost $10.2M) because ( c ) it's a lot of stadium work.

    And designing and getting some contribution toward the construction of a stadium is certainly a necessary first step in a critical process. It's just not the whole process. I remain skeptical that they can pull off 10-12 new and renovated stadiums by 12/31/2019. But, as I said, you have to voice the goal before you can achieve it.
     
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  8. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The OTHER benefit, though, is that USL can help prevent loss of markets and clubs to a competing league through such a subsidy program. I know if I were helping foot the bill for your stadium, I'd have some pretty clear, enforceable language keeping you from jumping ship.
     
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  9. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I wonder how much a stadium like Vancouver's Empire Field (which cost $15.2 million in 2015 dollars) would cost, if it was 1) not temporary and 2) grass but 3) closer to 5-8,000 capacity instead of 27,000. Sacramento's Bonney Field is listed as $3 million on Wikipedia (not sure if that includes the expansion) and that is far too large for most lower division teams at 11,000 capacity... it will be interesting to see how much certain MLS teams like RSL, TFC, and Montreal will spend on their USL stadiums.
     
  10. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    I do not believe that's accurate. Bonney is a cheap, modular stadium that was understood from day one to be a temporary venue. Remember, SRFC was going to play at Hughes until MLS objected. Bonney was the quick, ad hoc stadium solution for the short and medium terms. But nobody ever expected it to be a permanent home, and it wasn't built to be a permanent home. The best Bonney comparison is Vancouver's old Empire Field. Yeah, that was a pretty decent stadium, but its lifespan was understood in numbers of years, not in numbers of decades. I don't think any USL team is looking to build their own Bonney except as an interim solution. (I believe Charlotte is doing that.) The model here is probably more along the lines of Blackbaud, which cost $5.7 million in 98/99. So that's -- what -- maybe around $8-9 million today? Plus it's on the low end of D-II standards. So let's round up a bit, and say the USL is probably looking at stadiums in the $10-12 million range -- or roughly four times the cost of Bonney.
    I was speaking specifically in regards to the D-II requirements.
    I was thinking about the loan idea too. Would the USL want some of its teams to be indebted to the league? I can see arguments for and against that.
    I think they've got another year on that anyway. And as long as things are in process, I don't think they'll mind if it drags out longer.

    I also expect USSF will give them time to meet the stadium standards if (when) they're granted D-II. It's not like the USSF hasn't winked or looked the other way when other leagues haven't quite meet their minimums on time.
     
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  11. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    This is, indeed, one of the reasons why the USL might want some teams indebted to the league.
     
  12. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Okay, that's fair.

    Oh, yeah, you're right. As will several teams. That is IF they are all intending to go up to DII. Which is a fact still not in evidence.

    What's their FICO scores, do you think?

    Are we now going to argue about what the "end of the decade" means? ;)

    I don't, either. They should have just put an "-ish" at the end. :)

    This is true.
     
  13. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I would think that might be a touch easier to enforce than the current non-compete clause, which may or may not survive a court challenge. (Not that one appears to be forthcoming.) At the very least, someone would be on the hook to give you the money back, or rights to the stadium, or something.

    But I am not sure I would lend the Harrisburg City Islanders (just as an example) a lot of money. The NFL can loan one of its teams a bunch of cash to build a stadium, but they know they're going to get it back in spades. That's a safe investment. Some of this might be more akin to loaning your American Express card to a guy you met on the subway.
     
  14. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    I'm pretty sure the deal would run something along the lines of: "Improve your ownership group, and we'll help you out on the stadium front. Otherwise, good luck ..."
     
  15. Blando13

    Blando13 Member+

    Dec 4, 2013
    Lee's Summit, MO
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think it's better to look at it from a team by team basis. Not every club has the same needs, or has the same future needs. We also don't know how they're defining "soccer specific stadium". Is Taft stadium in OKC now "soccer specific"? Will Memorial Stadium be after it is "retrofitted" for Charlotte? Will HOK be involved in stadium upgrades like at Memorial?

    Also ... what if Sacramento is granted MLS membership next year ... with an entry date in 2020. It sounds like they could have most of their stadium ducks in a row. Is it possible they build and move in to a new MLS level stadium prior to 2020, knowing that they're going to put at least 11-13k in a 20k stadium ... just so they get out of Bonney faster? What could be done with the bones of Bonney? Is it modular enough to be moved to Colorado Springs as an upgrade to their current facility? Or used in a location as a temperary solution while they build their own (say Detroit or something)?

    Would HOK be interested in designing some modular type of setup that could be used by more than one club?

    Would HOK design something similar to San Antonio Scorpions for the markets that have "Bigger dreams" ... something that is modest now (5-10k in capacity) but is plannned and designed for something larger ... which would allow you to get away from the temperary Bonny type only to have to completely change courses in 8 years when the market demand/league demand changes. Design to be built in.

    Also ... the end of the decade label is what it is ... MLS probably stated a similar goal ... and DC United and New England likely missed that "goal" ... and some clubs in USL will miss the goal too, but like Kenn said above ... you don't typically reach goals until you state some ... so they've stated it ... now they all have something to work for.

    I think HOK and USL will also be in a position to help ownership groups put together plans and solid estimates for teams that look to get any sort of public money. It's set up to be a more professional package to move forward with.
     
  16. davideinstein

    davideinstein Member

    Jun 27, 2010
    Tulsa, Oklahoma
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Tulsa is aggresively looking for a location in downtown right now. I think if you mix it as a music venue it makes more sense financially.
     
  17. Blando13

    Blando13 Member+

    Dec 4, 2013
    Lee's Summit, MO
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not like they don't have an empty lot or two around downtown (sorry ... not emtpy ... paved with some painted lines on it!). This is the first team I thought of when I saw the announcement ... them and Louisville.
     
  18. ButlerBob

    ButlerBob Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 13, 2001
    Evanston, IL
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The very first team I thought for this was Harrisburg. They have a great location and temporary facilities and stands at best. I think they could get by a 3k stadium at first. And have the ability to expand to may 5k. I know for sure the city doesn't have any money to do it. They ownership had announced their goal was to improve / build a new stadium. But it doesn't seem like they have gotten much traction there.

    Kudos to everyone in this discussion. Everyone has posted some really thought out ideas and counter ideas.
     
  19. Macsen

    Macsen Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 5, 2007
    Orlando
    Club:
    Orlando City SC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, Harrisburg is already working on a new stadium. (Keep in mind, the attached article has glaring spelling and grammar issues.)

    They are applying for a state grant to help fund a 5,000-seat stadium. If they keep up the numbers they've been having their first two home matches, they're going to have their best year ever by far. So they might finally be able to justify better accommodations.
     
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  20. SoccerPrime

    SoccerPrime Moderator
    Staff Member

    All of them
    Apr 14, 2003
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sorry, Harrisburg is bankrupt and the state has no money or desire to help out a soccer stadium. I don't see this ending well for H-burg. Union getting involved is the only hope to keep them around.
     
  21. H.U.S.T.L.E.

    H.U.S.T.L.E. Member

    Aug 6, 2014
    Club:
    DC United
    I've been intrigued by this news ever since they announced it, since it's such an ambitious plan for a minor league system.

    As a Richmond native (now living in Northern VA), I have no idea if there's any plans in the works for the Kickers or that there's even anybody clamoring to upgrade their situation. I think City Stadium is a great site for them, but the facilities have been woefully out of date since the early 90s when I was a kid going to University of Richmond football games.

    I'd be absolutely shocked if any public money went to a new stadium for the Kickers, so it would almost have to be built with private funding. The stink that's being raised over the city trying to build a new baseball stadium with public funds probably would prevent any serious discussions about a stadium for minor league soccer (granted, there are other political issues that surround it, namely the proposed location historically being one of the largest slave trading markets in America). And despite a healthy appetite for the beautiful game as evidenced in TV ratings of USMNT/USWNT World Cup games, the people who make actual decisions in Richmond would scoff at funding a soccer stadium. I can already see the politicians and Times-Dispatch... "Public money for soccer?!?! How about a real sport?"

    And other than the Ukrop family, I'm not sure there's many other willing benefactors to the Richmond soccer scene. So unless one of the big finance companies headquartered in Richmond wants to pony up some money to earn goodwill, I have zero clue how anything gets accomplished for the Kickers. Unfortunately, Richmond politics are famous for big talk, dragging feet and ultimately no action.
     
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  22. Macsen

    Macsen Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 5, 2007
    Orlando
    Club:
    Orlando City SC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The CITY is bankrupt, not the TEAM. You may be confusing them with the Riverhounds.

    They're only asking for $2M from the state, and financing sports venues isn't a local prerogative in Pennsylvania anyway.
     

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