Keith just to reiterate what billf stated, club soccer in NJ is superior to high school soccer. Y as in Super Y league not YMCA. There is also MAPS league which is even more elitest and competitive. I also agree with his assessment of most HS referees. I would not want them working a high level youth or even worse a men's amateur match. It's the reality, not some politically or USSF correct position. I am sure it may be different in many other parts of the country, but my experience from Mass to Florida has been the clubs are more competitive and offer better training and coaching than high school for comparable ages.
OK, everyone all together: "WE GIVE UP KEITH - YOU'RE RIGHT, WE'RE WRONG" There, feel better now? Good, now please shut (edited by the moderator) up!
Alas my expectations have been dashed Alberto, an elitist. I won't sleep tonight. Alberto, do you think the statement about "club soccer in NJ being superior to high school" might not be scientific, but partially subjective, (read: biased)? Just a hunch. I can accept your knocking and putting down high school soccer, Alberto, but suggesting high school referees, which in most venues are also experienced and dedicated USSF referees. . .are inferior, is a bit much to swallow. Virtually all our Nationals and National Emeriti are high school referees. I'll try to break the reality that they're inferior, very calmly to them. Could I give them your telephone number for any possible retorts? Alberto, et al, reread my posts. Club soccer is MUCH better of a player development medium. Club soccer will always have the best top teams, because of the fact they practice "elitism." This is not a "bad thing," it's just a reality and I accept it. But you don't need to bash high school soccer, high school players/coaches/parents/fans/venues, high school referees. . to protect your beloved elitism and puritanical views of USSF (aka FIFA) soccer. I'm so sorry I offended your puritanical spirit. But I do thank you all for not lowering yourself to participating in a NATIONAL sport shared by hundreds of thousands of players, coaches, etc. I promise not to start bashing your local pro team, in what ever sport or your state or your preferences or hobbies, just because I might feel offended. I reserve judgement more on things we both do and share. I'm kind of like that ;o)
Had to look that one up Dont forget to like your fingertips first.................PS i would read more of your posts if they werent longer then the actual NFHS 2002-03 rules book.
Re: Alas my expectations have been dashed Let me ask you. Who the hell does the NHSF think they are to take the LOTG and modify them without FIFA's permission. They are the elitist. They think they can arbitrarily modify the LOTG without giving any thought to the impact it has on players, coaches and officials. Why do they want to modify that which players from U-6 to U-14 have practiced? This is the height of insanity. Play by FIFA's rules or not at all. Congress when they are less busy and the USOOC should look into this and rescind NHSF charter.
Alberto. . . frustrated purist extradenaire! Alberto, you disappoint me. I always had high regard for your opinion, but this not only smacks of elitist and purist, but close mindedness. "Who the hell" do you think YOU are to question what hundreds of thousands, (millions?) of American believe in and participate in every day? Remember you're not only putting down high school and college soccer, but YMCA soccer, rec soccer, small sided soccer, and even our USYSA soccer. Doesn't all your youth soccer modify the FIFA laws of the game such as time, substitutions, size of ball/goals, etc? How come you're not offended at this? I realize the law provide for it, but it's not practiced the same over seas in FIFA-land. They don't use the same modifications we use, in fact they stick more to FIFA. I'm strongly offended by your comments, not because I disagree, or I feel personally affected, but I expected better from you. I bet you lose sleep and consider slashing your wrist every time FIFA come out with a new memorandum that modifies existing laws or policy. I bet you refuse to make players roll their sleeves down in violation of the latest memorandum? I think I'm going to lose sleep tonight that the my hero Alberto has such a closed mind on this. Be a traditionist, Alberto, but open the mind, and accept what the majority already accept. . .that this great game CAN be modified, changed, adapted, for benefity of a majority or at least those who CHOOSE to accept this.
Keith, Hundreds of thousands or millions of Americans don't "believe in" the bastardized high school rules. The play them because they have no choice. I guess the big question I'd have is WHY the National High School organization feels the need to screw with what works everywhere else around the world? Do they think that they are smarter than the people who have been caretakers of the laws for over 100 years?? All I can say is that the high school rules still make no sense to me. Perhaps you can explain the rule to me where an attacker in the penalty area gets his jersey yanked from behind and pulled down. The attacker gets awarded an indirect free kick and the defender who grabed his shirt gets a yellow card AND a red card. By the way Keith...I usually enjoy for sacrastic dry wit, but you are probably in line for a BigSoccer red card if you keep the personal attacks going...just mho but you may want to tone it down a bit. We would miss you occational insightful comments. Scott
Re: Alberto recognizing that we play by the LOTG or call it something else Keith if we are going to get into the argument of millions of Americans, how about the billions world wide that practice the sport per FIFA. The bottom line is this. FIFA was created to regulate and promote the interest of football and to institute a uniform set of laws world wide. It is the height of huberis for the NHSF to modify these laws. What would be correct is for FIFA to fine or revoke the charter of the USSF over the NHSF for the breaches to the LOTG. Something they clearly have the power to do since the USSF is responsible under the Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Athletics Act to regulate amateur soccer in the USA. Here's a link http://www.olympic-usa.org/about_us/documents/amateuract.htm Fact, I want our players to have every chance to compete at a world level. Fact, the modifications by NHSF and the NCAA means players have to learn the nuances of three sets of rules. That is counterproductive to player development.
Just an observation from an ignorant foreigner, but I find it fascinating that FIFA allows this (or more accurately, allows people who play/officiate non-FIFA sanctioned 'soccer' to also play/officiate the FIFA sanctioned sport). I guess it is because the US is such a big and important market, but in most other countries they would be putting a stop to it. I remember a couple of years ago they were threatening to suspend New Zealand because an amateur league was allowing a woman to play in a means team. And of course Australia was kicked out of FIFA in the 1960's for not enforcing FIFA's player transfer rules. Whenever we even try to raise the idea of interchange in amateur 'park' football (for under 35 men) the ruling comes back down the line that the soccer bodies MUST follow FIFA guidelines or be disaffiliated.
Scott, I respect your right to disagree with how the rules have been changed in high school or college, or where ever else. We can probably agree on some points, and disagree on many of the disagreements I have with FIFA soccer. But I suggest (not accuse) that your complete acceptance of FIFA laws/rules is based on respect or admiration for the parent of this game, rather than the actual reality of each law/rule. . and your offense to high school isn't the specific modification, but the fact that they had the audacity to alter the original, traditional law. So your spin is that hundreds of thousands of participants in high school and college soccer, are being dragged kicking and screaming into this new soccer, because they have no choice?! That's spin is making me dizzy, Scott; nice try. There really isn't anything stopping these kids from leaving high school soccer and going to play USSF soccer some where. What's stopping them? Anyone has the right to start a USSF/USYSA season, or for that matter a non-USSF, but USSF-based league of soccer to compete with high school. The reality is the player DO choose to play high school, because they want to play socce for their high school, and the ACCEPT these different rules. I'll bet if we could do a Q&A of the players, who have successfully played both venues, they would agree if not simply accept high school soccer rules as better, or acceptable for their personal choices. But if you put the question in the form of "do you want a career in high school/college soccer . . or do you want a career in USSF/FIFA soccer?" the questions carries obvious consequences, because there is no "career" or income in these amateur levels or anything beyond college soccer. FIFA soccer has a career future. High school and college do not. It's a no brainer, and not what's at issue here. What at issue is the right and enjoyment of players, coaches, parents, trainers, refererees, and fans to enjoy high school and college soccer, in lieu of USSF soccer. They choose, not required, to enjoy this sport. I think suggesting they are compelled to accept this choice is calling these people ignorant. If your belief that these people all agree with you, et al, but they have no choice, this is ignorant that we're under some dictatorship forcing high school and college soccer on all of us. Nothing could be further from the truth. You're reference to this specific act, is absolutely and positively YOUR personal interpretation, and not that of NFHS or any high school referee. You try to spin it that this game is different to move your agenda against high school soccer. It is NOT different, Scott. Try it sometime. It's the same. The differences are VERY subtle; and most difference are better, and are appreciate more by the players and coaches, then they are by the referees. When a team doesn't have to "pay" for the minor/technical sins of one of their players (or that of the officious, blind referee), they can appreciate this difference. We started the season last week, and I know this will offend and start a disagreement, and that's not my intent, but I still find high school soccer much more intense and competitive over all than club soccer. I do both, and even doing the club older girls compared to last spring seasons high school girls, is so much more different. It get a "premier" level (top) U17-18 club team, and I'm just amazed at how relatively slow and unispiriing play is compared to the high school teams. Hey, that wasn't any "personal attack" on Alberto, and even he'll admit that. I usually agree with Alberto, but this closed minded response, tinged with all this anger, disappointed me, and that was my point.
Re: Re: Alberto recognizing that we play by the LOTG or call it something else Alberto, you're way off base here. You're litterally hysterical about this and can't even be rationale. USSF has absolutely NO authority or influence over NFHS and NCAA soccer. This is a joke, and it's an INSULT to suggest USSF should go out and beat down any "alternative" soccer, because the purists are offended. This is about "control" minded people. Do it my way or the highway. (standard soccer referee attitude). I guess the NFL should go over and demand all football played in foriegn countries should cease and desist this bastard version of "our" football? Same with basketball and baseball? They're "OUR" sports and they should only be played one way? Give me a break Alberto, "who in the hell" do you think you are to suggest such strong arm, totalitarian tactics. Get your own life, and let others CHOOSE to live their as they want to. The majority of the world is what muslim, does that mean we all have to change? The majority of christians are catholic, does this mean we all have to change? It's not about "majority rules," get over that moronic notion. The MAJORITY, (this is a fact Alberto) of soccer-knowledgeable people, accept and condone high school and college soccer in America, and THAT's what makes it acceptable and successful. If everyone dispised high school/college soccer as you and Scott profess, why is continued? Is this some dictatorship, or are people in control who hate FIFA soccer and they foist it upon all of us, and we merely follow lock step into their world? Get over this fantasy and spin, Alberto and Scott. All this majority, hundreds of thousands who play, coach, ref, watch, administer high school and college soccer, do so because they find appreciation and enjoyment in this sport. There not as you suggest, lamb led to slaughter, or naive or have their choices hand cuffed. Just because someone doesn't like a rule or some aspect of a new sport doesn't mean they hate the sport. I'll bet there are aspect or rules or minor situatoins of some other sport you enjoy you disagree with, but it doesn't cause you to walk away. You see most people don't think in these shades of black and white, but in shade of grays. They are tolerent of alternative views, and mandated differences, and manage to get by this and still enjoy a great game of soccer played under the same spirit, and fundamental policies and rules, but just a few minor changes, that most (that's majority Alberto) agree is good for the game. Just like our laws, the rules of sports are not dictorial. They are created by representatives of the sport, and if they were so outrageoous that the participants hated them, they would never last. This sportsmanship lecture before the games in high school sports is one that I would say "most" referees disagree with at some degree or another. But enough people feel there is "some" merit and the fact it's really relatively harmless and more of an inconvenience then an interference, . . that it continues in spite of our objections. It's just an example that there is buy-in to any changes, including modifications to a world wide sport. I don't care to play by the rules of the majority of the world's masses, and I don't think you would either. It's not a selling point. You still havent' reponded to my inquiry why USSF modifications, youth/amateur and other "forms" of acceptable soccer to you, doesn't equally offend you. Or maybe my point is made?
As someone who played both, my answer is that the high school rules were not better and in fact, quite inferior to the normal FIFA rules. While I'll only officially vote for myself, I know that everyone I used to play with felt the same way. Even as a ref, I remember a lot of derision when we had the first meeting of the season and went over the changes for HS. These were USSF and HS refs, and the refs thought the changes were dumb. Keith, I'm not sure anyone agrees with your view. Finally, I played HS because I wanted to play (partially for school and partially just to play). I did choose to play HS, but that wasn't because I liked the rule changes better than FIFA, but because if you want to play HS you put up with the stupid rules.
If FIFA could stop high school, college, or other alternative forms of soccer. . .they would. But the reality is they can't, and they shouldn't. Should our football administration come to Austrailian and force some stopping your brand of "Australian rules of football," because our football purists are offended? You would respond by saying "mind your own business" and most of us would agree. Any time anyone "in power" can affect power over others they will do so, and American foriegn policy is a good example. Yes, America has a lot of influence ($$) over world policy, including soccer. I have no proof, but I'll bet US soccer has has more influence over FIFA modifications and policy to the game than any other country. Some may be offended by this, especially non-Americans but this is a reality. Power is influential. How about just living with it and allowing others to make personal choices? I think Austrailian football and rugby are stupid, but I don't feel so offended I want it changed or stopped. If the personal choice of a some small offshoot of a traditional sport is small, you can point and wag your finger and take issue with so few who are participating as proof positive this is "wrong." But it doesn't work with high school and collegiate "American" soccer, because if you do, YOU are in the minority. Alleging that the participants don't have a choice or hate the difference, is pure spin and unfounded. If one doesn't understand why so many (majority) enjoy a slight different flavor of soccer, then accept that these people are confused or misguided, or what ever satiates your misunderstanding of other people's choices. But don't create spin and suggests some "power" come in and stop people from making this choice, just so you feel better. It's not about "YOU," it's about choice, and sometimes it's about majority, and sometimes it's about $$, and sometimes it's simply about personal choice.
Scott, you lost me on that one. Nothing different here with NFHS than with FIFA. Definitely a PK for the hold, unless the attacking team maintained the advantage. Caution or ejection depending upon the circumstances (tactical, DOGSO, etc.), but definitely not a "soft red" (unless it was a second caution.) The only way it's an IFK (under NFHS) is if you allow play to continue due to an advantage, the goal isn't scored and then you stop play soley to go back and administer a caution for the previous misconduct. NFHS has some quirky administrative rules but the LOTG are almost identical when it comes to fouls and misconduct. In my opinion, the IFK restart (play stopped soley to administer a caution or sendoff, or for injury with one team in clear possession) is a better option than FIFA's drop ball. Sorry guys, didn't mean to interrupt such a thoughtful and dignified philosophical exchange!
Keith, I have to jump in here and disagree as the parent of a high school junior. My son and at least 3 other of his HS teammates would play club soccer if it were offered for the older age groups rather than play HS soccer. I recently polled about 12 of the players from his club team and asked if this team could play in the fall, would they play for the club or play high school. 10 of the 12 said club. When you have players as the highest levels of premier soccer -- the players in ODP and playing on Regional finalist caliber teams -- there is quite simply no comparison between that level of soccer and the level of soccer played in high schools. My son's HS team is a top 20 team in the state of Indiana -- we won the state championship 3 years ago. And despite being at a very large school with a very strong soccer program, there are kids on his varsity team who couldn't make ANY of the local select teams. They can't effectively trap the ball, they can't consistently return a ball for a give and go in 1 or even 2 touches. It is very frustrating for him to have to play with these players. Believe me when I say, if there was ANY other option, he'd take it in a heartbeat. As for the players thinking that the HS rules are better, there is 1 thing they like better -- that's the fact that a 2nd caution is a soft red and their team doesn't have to play short. They think the rest of the rules modifications are stupid. I get more grief as a referee trying to enforce the shinguard rule than ALL other things combined.
Well that's one for them and one for me(?). One that they claim high school players hate these rules and I guess you didn't feel coerced into playing these bastard rules, but enjoyed the game and environment. I think this was MY point. You didn't mention which modification in HS affected/offended you so as a high school player. Could you elaborate, and give reasons, reference, and examples why this rule modifcation disadvantaged or offended you as a high school player? Do you think soccer players LOVE EVERY law in the USSF/FIFA LOTG? Do you think they think any of them also are "stupid?" Like shirts in, "adequate shin guards, subbing at center line with permission only, "mandatory cautions" and cautions for disagreeing with a ref/encroachment, kickoff must go forward, ejection and playing short for your second caution for encroachment? The differences and people's response are not as black and white as you attempt to paint it. I don't think you understand "my view, csc7, otherwise you wouldn't have made such a bold statement that no high school ref agrees with me. That's absurb. I do NOT think high school rules are the cat's meow. But I think most of the modifications, improve the game; some don't. But NONE of them offend or affect the game in any negative way. It's all spin by purists who are simply personally offended at doing something different, and sometimes for which they don't see an obvious benefit. That's doesn't bother me I do a lot of stupid things required in USSF soccer that offend me and I see absolutely no benefit in or sometimes cause me more grief as a referee, but I do them out of respect for my peers and the game and everyone who adheres to these laws. I just wish the rest would do the same or simple choose not to participate in high school soccer, and shut up.
I would like your posts too if you could "spell." Greyhnd means "lick" not "like." But I continue to read your posts in spite of my frustration, Greyhnd, and I think you will too. I have a LOT to say. Sorry you have so much to read. ;o)
pk, thanks for a little sensibility. My response to Scott was the same. But I'm sure I can guess what Scott is refereeing to. . . personal interpretation. USSF and NFHS carry laws/rule documentation to two completely different extremes. USSF keeps them so short they are hard to understand how/when/where/why to enforce them. Even ATR isn't much more help. Maybe that's why we have so many SOCCER REFEREE forums. Do other sports officials have all these forums as we do? Probably not. They're rules are a little more informational? While NFHS on the other hand tries to OVER-EXPLAIN the rules to tell what referees should do and why. They try TOO hard to control unsporting tactics and behavior, rather then simply impowering the referee to judge and act. Someone shared with me a web site comparing USSF and NFHS rules. ftp://ftp.ois.uri.edu/referee/ There's some valueable infor here, but obviously it was written by someone with a bent against high school rules. There are many references I've never heard of that are either taking out of context or too literal. Referees are smart enough to know when rules and policies are applicable and needed. But HS rules goes to far, and sometimes they try to explain things, that USSF referee already understand and it comes out wrong. Many of these are found here, as some frustration. As most high school referees understand the game is the same and so are the rules, with subtle exceptions. As pk is saying the fouls and misconduct are virtually the same, so are the infringements, but HS tries too hard to explain them differently or put their own spin to them. Most HS referees understand this different verbage, but understand the spirit is the same. Just like when they suggest every restart should be signal with a whistle, most HS referees understand their intent is not to allow players to be surprised by a sneak restart, but want to make sure everyone is aware the ball is back in play. A reasonable expectation, but USSF referees understand the same spirit, and realize a whistle is always need. HS referee don't take this literally, but simply apply the USSF tradition, or use a few more whistles to comply. It's the same boys. . . try it some time. Personally, from my experience with club girls this season compared to spring HS season, and vice versa with boys HS season. . . the game is MUCH more intense and competitive, but I know this offends the purists, so leave it alone.
Kevin, thanks for voting, but I disregard this "poll." If you asked your son would you prefer to play in an enviroment that will allow you to play with the BEST players (just like you) where you can develop and get exposure to scouts for scholarships and develop as a career player. . . I can see where they would pick this. But if you simply asked any average player would you like to play for one team and their parents, in a restricted atmosphere of just our team and parents, . . .or play for your home school, represent your community, play with friends, rather than strangers. . I think they would pick high school. It's HOW you spin the question, Kevin. ONCE AGAIN, I'm not suggesting high school soccer is better quality in players or teams, because they don't practice elitism and put the only the best players on one team. They are representative of school and community, not of the choice players in the state. You have an obvious bias Kevin, and your integrity is only based on your word as is mine, but I seriously doubt if you have your son and his friends a choice to play on a club team with may 1 or 2 other teams they would choose this, when they could play for their school, and play against ALL his peers and teams in a full competition, with hundreds of teams. The argument of club soccer vs high school soccer is a slippery slope. If the kid is career-minded and seeking scholarship or a pro career, the obvious choice is club. If the kid is more realistic, and not living through the vicarious dreams of his parents, I believe as an alternative one season during the year, they will pick high school. I'm sorry your son feel offended having to play with sub-standard players he's not accustomed to on his club team, where all the players are elite and are at the same level. Sorry about this "down side" of of high school soccer, having to mix with the riff raff, but it comes with the territory . . . and life. Once again, my elitist allegation proves out. Nothing personal.
Keith, Sorry, I should have been more specific. What I meant is no one I've ever talked to liked HS modifications and no one this board seems to agree with you either. No, players don't LOVE every rule, and I never said we (now, they) did. Good job trying to make a straw man out of my argument. It's much easier to change someone's statement and then tear that down than to actually deal with what they said, isn't it? What I was saying is that the modifications the HS associations rarely make any sense (I will make an exception for the "soft red" for dissent, I'm ok with that one). The refs didn't think so, the players didn't think so. Can I reference the date, time, and circumstances surrounding every rules change that I didn't like as a player? Sorry, I didn't take notes during the games and it's been several years since I played HS. A drastically important rule difference was the ability for keepers to use their hands on a backpass. HS kept it several years after FIFA decided it wasn't a good rule (and FIFA was dead on--ultimately the HS association agreed with FIFA, but waited long enough to make it look like they weren't following FIFA's lead). Club players and non club players had trouble with that difference. It was confusing in the heat of the battle to remember if the keeper could pick up the ball. Another was HS's decision to keep the official clock on the scoreboard, but still allowed injury time. I was involved in a game where the ref seemed to think time should be up (and couldn't tell us when the game would end). The other team scored a goal in this extra time to tie the game. A third was a HS rule to have 2 halves for overtime, but to end the game if one team was winning after the first half (no golden goal). Thus if you lost the coin toss in overtime, you could be put at a significant disadvantage because the other team could defend the goal on the really bad side of the field (witness 2002 MLS all star game to see what a waterlogged section of a field does to a counter-attack). As a ref, I saw this have a significant effect in a playoff game. Another was the requirement that a ref explain every yellow card to both coaches. Meaning, when we gave a yellow card, we had to physically go over to each coach and tell them what the infraction was. You're going to want to argue that I felt uncomfortable explaining my calls. Not the case. The real problem is that coaches saw this conference as a GREAT time to bitch about the call ("no way that was a yellow" or "that should have been a red"). Unfortunately their opinions weren't that short, but often lasted for well over a minute. The combined effect of this rule was often to stop the game for two or more minutes. This could destroy the flow of the game. It seemed to me (and most the people I ever spoke to in my soccer career) that these rule changes were the HS association's attempt to exert its influence. Rather than trying to help the game, they were marking their territory. Worst of all Keith, you've sucked me into writing messages as long as your's. I apologize to everyone else on the board for that.
ps, I'm not sure why you think every player that is playing club is trying to get a soccer scholarship or become a professional. The majority of club players play for fun and don't go play soccer at college.
I'm for closing this thread unless someone wants to offer yet one more point or counterpoint. We can agree to disagree. I think a lot of issues were aired that have irked and bothered both sides of who has the right to modify the LOTG and whether those changes are of benefit for the game or improve the players enjoyment of the game. Thanks for a passionate debate. I'll leave the thread open for rebuttal til midnight EDT tonight.
Hey, something good did come out of this thread! Thanks for the link Keith. I had seen this document before but lost the URL. Although it looks like a ton of issues, the author correctly labels most of them as either "1=minor, technical, administrative, so what?" or " 2= Important but rarely occurs." Most of the differences that aren't purely administrative (i.e.: everyone loves to sue a school district) are the result of a lag between changes in interpretation by USSF in the ATR, and similar changes that usually follow by NFHS. If you took the differences that truely have a substantive impact on real play, you'd find that a whole mess of FIFA/USSF referees think that the NFHS answer is still the correct FIFA/USSF answer. (And these are frequently the guys who don't do NFHS games, so they have no excuse!) We hear it at every clinic and on every recertification test. Funny how nobody ever complains about the interpretations when they are current for FIFA/USSF, but as soon as FIFA/USSF changes a law or an interpretation, there are those who mock NFHS for its "stupid rules". For the most part, NFHS isn't "stupid", it's just bureaucratically slow in keeping up! What's even more amazing is when NFHS makes the change first. Oh my, we hear how it will be the death of soccer. Funny how you never hear those same comments when the ATR picks up a similar change in interpretation a year later.