Post-match: USA vs Jamaica CONCACAF Nations League (leg 1)

Yeah, needless to say, I don't agree. If you are missing half of your field players due to injuries, you're not facing a miniscule injury crisis. That is flat out ludicrous.

I'd take England's injury issues more seriously if their players gave a ---- about NL, but they do not. 3 years after complaining vociferously about NL following the '20-'21 campaign, an absolute ton of their players pulled out of this NL window precisely because they couldn't be ----ed to even play in the window, hence headlines like:

Harry Kane hits out at England teammates over withdrawals from squad: ‘I don’t really like it’

It's not comparable, even a little, and this is what, the second time England, and numerous other Continental European teams complained about not giving a ---- about this NL nonsense (I think De Bruyne was one of those guys who said that in either '21 or '23).

We have had an absolute TON of players out with injuries this fall AND we've sucked the past 15 months. Both statements are true.

 

I didn't see it, thanks for the comment. With me, what has bothered me with McKenzie is that there's been a consistent 1+ gaffe per game rate, usually catastrophic in nature, and groups like Scuffed have reported that he had the same problems in Belgium. Pretty huge bummer to have both our best CB's from that '19 U20 class struggle w/these issues, so if its beginning to go away, that's a win (I'm not up to date w/how he's been playing in France).

 

Agreed on both.

I think, not sure, but that makes it sound like you agree w/me at striker?

I've basically been:
1a) Pepi
1b) Balo
HUGE ENORMOUS GAP
3) Sargent
4) Wright
Even bigger gap
5) Vasquez

As for Adams and Reyna, I agree, but there's also no arguing that Adams and Reyna are probably 2 of the 3 most impactful absence based players on the roster. Adams absence has historically made our defensive stoutness 1/2 or 1/4 normal. No Reyna means the xG we produce is cut dramatically. Nobody in the pool comes close to offering what he does, other than maybe Cavan who is years away (if he hits as a senior professional). After that its probably either Dest or Weah, I'd go with Weah just because we've never been able to replace him and the verticality piece he provides, width etc.

 

No doubt. People forget how absolute --- our striker pool was from 2007-2021.

We essentially had one usable striker those 14 years other than Davies in 2009. ONE. The rest of the strikers, ALL OF THEM, would not rate higher than Striker #6 or #7 in the pool today (Pefok or Ferreira) and honestly, I don't think they'd even rank that high, most of those guys, like Wood and Johannson, had a moment or two where they gave a hint they might be usable before sinking below the surface again. At this point we have at least 5 usable strikers, plus a box poaching vet in Pefok. It's night and freaking day. No, none of those guys are world class strikers, but guys like Balo and Pepi are considered serious options as big 5 league starters by top half of the standings and CL clubs, and guys like Wright and Sargent are consider bottom half of the table level striker talent for big 5 clubs on the continent.

Virtually everything we had other than Altidore after McHead retired, and Davies car crash was nowhere remotely near that level. People forget that we brought Brian Ching, Herc and Findley among others to WC '06, and WC '10, people forget that after Altidore went down, Klinsy didn't think we had a single guy we could play up top at WC '14.

There's some crazy pills to the talk about striker. It's a pile of riches compared to the rest of our history, just incredible, do they need work? Sure, but they are miles, miles, miles better than anything else we had at striker this century other than McBride, Donovan, Mathis, Davies and Altidore.

 

The telemundo highlights have the angles and slo-mo. It would have been nice if he’d cleared it better but the idea of blaming him when the RB basically played a triangle with the other team and Ream got chopped twice seems like confirmation bias more than analysis.

 

That's absolute lunacy.

The vast bulk of those options were used as midfielders. Donovan was a MF in 2006 and 2010, same with Dempsey. This is why they took dreck like Findley as a like for like hail mary that he could replicate Davies, while hopefully Herc could replicate the season of his life in LigaMx.

If you want to argue that had Donovan been used properly in '06, and Dempsey been used properly in '06, sure, that changes things up a bit, but Arena was stuck having tried to make Donovan the playmaker, and then neutered him whenever Reyna was available by creating our poor man's version of the Lampard/Gerrard lesser of both worlds conundrum w/Donovan deferring constantly to Sponge Bob Square Pass. If we had McBride+Donovan in '06, that changes things, but we did not. We had trash and McBride's retirement tour, which is why other than a Dempsey goal out of nothing against Ghana, the attack generated zero goals at the WC, and few and far between in the tune ups against a whose who of total --- friendlies.

2010 was a straight up disaster, the attack floundered after Davies injury and was never the same again.

2014's Altidore opening 20 minutes injury totally neutralized that strike force.

The '94's and '98's produced nothing other than a free kick against Switzerland, and a wondergoal of botched defending against Colombia, mixed with that nice collection of chances against Iran, largely unfinished.

2002 was the only time period, period, where we had a great collection of striker options, and all of them other than McBride, were still largely MF/Wing Forward hybrids.

2024's collection of natural strikers: Balo, Pepi, Sargent, Wright, plus lesser options like Vasquez, Pefok, and false 9ish/forward Ferreira are miles better as a cohort than anything preceeding it. To pretend different is nostalgia-casting a world that never existed (Donovan as a striker/forward in '06 for instance, the forward options not being total horse ---- at WC '10 and 14 etc, the reality that the '94 and '98 heroes and erm, not heroes produced 2 goals total in the run of play in 7 games). '02 is the only and true counter example: 3 goals against Portugal, and numerous chances blown, a beautiful goal against South Korea, a post hit by Mathis and a disallowed goal by Donovan against Poland along with the counted goal, the finale against Germany, a colossal pile of xG produced by everyone, to know effect beyond Berhalter's goal that was waived off/blocked by a handball etc. '02 is the only WC where our striker force wasn't total --- period. All the rest of them featured midfielders doing all the work, and collecting the bulk of the glory when there was some.

 

Pepi and Balo definitely at the top. Balo with, seemingly, the better pedigree but Pepi has consistently come through when called upon. I'll take production over pedigree. Not a bad problem to have though. It would be nice to see both produce and make the choice for #1 more difficult, while at the same time, creating more choices and options.

I definitely agree on pretty much everything you said. The only difference I have is that I think I need to see more from Vaszquez. The only striker somewhat similar to him (style of play and size) is Wright. He has definitely added something at times when he has come on. I need to see more before I rank him.

Also agree on the quality of Reyna and Adams, I was just making a semantical statement. Imo, a starter is someone that starts consistently. It is impossible to start consistently if you are consistently injured.

It also has implications on planning for the future. Like I said, you plan with the hope that one or both will be healthy but expect neither to be available.

I also agree about the difficulty of ranking Weah and Dest for importance. Together, they have been providing one half of our offense (right side). Both are key for our vertical game and Dest has provided, by far, most of our best crosses. On the left, it's Puli and Jedi...they play differently but provide the same basic effect.

What I would say is that they (both sides) have been our most important offensive players but there has been an extreme over reliance that makes us easier to defend and makes those players even more important at the same time. The solution is to add something dangerous doing something other than going vertical. I want to see more goals being scored by creating and finding space in the middle...especially in the box; like Pulli and Pepi's masterpiece. Pulisic's dribbling manipulated the defense, first he broke a line by beating two, than he forced the player marking Pepi to make a choice which than opened a gap (that gap was only there because Pulisic created it), Pepi recognized and read the play and filled the space to receive a perfectly timed pass from Pulisic.

 

It's great grass for the other kind of football. Natural padding.

 

The one thing I would say is that he made that challenge with the OUTSIDE of his right foot. If he had made that challenge with the INSIDE of his left, it probably would have been a stronger challenge.

Regardless, it was not an individual mistake by McKenzie that caused the goal. He was unable to clean up the original error which was a giveaway that led to McKenzie and Ream running toward goal and trying to stop the attack. I believe he deserves some blame, for the relatively weak tackle, but not all...he was put in a bad spot by his teammate.

 

Sarcasm emoji?

 

It's always been simple: From 2007-2010 he went from strength to strength as an international player, finishing tied for 3rd in total goals at the U20 WC while scoring a brace against Brazil, idiotically being benched at the Olympics, before joining the qualifiying campaign for the WC, inbetween, playing a key role in the massive upset over Spain in the semi's of the confed cup. At the WC, zero goals, but he came close to scoring the winner against England, hitting the post, flicking a headed assist to Bradley for the equalizer against Slovenia, and then providing the near assist to Dempsey on what became the late winner against Algeria. After that he was injured FOR EVERY SINGLE MAJOR MOMENT OF THE REST OF HIS INTERNATIONAL CAREER. That, in essence, is why he's underrated. Because he wasn't there. He missed WC '14 entirely other than about 15 minutes of the opener, he missed the Copa America Centenario where he probably would have piled in goals, he was horrible in WCQ in 2017, and so virtually all of his international goals were in friendlies, or in games against crap sides in Gold Cups and WCQ (never scoring once in any match against El Tri or Costa Rica in qualifying, the only opponents of real quality for the most part in WCQ in 2009 and 2013, and of course in qualifying in '17, he was shut out entirely other than the final window home beat down of Panama that everyone scored in).

That's what it is. His international career in matches that matter to people (big qualifiers against teams that don't suck, the WC, Copa Centenario, Gold Cup Final's against Mexico for tickets to the Confed Cups of 2013 and 2017? He didn't score a goal IN ANY OF THOSE GAMES). That's what it is. After 2010 he was completely absent in matches that mattered for the vast majority of fans for the rest of his international career.

It sucks. I think in an alternate universe where he is healthy for WC '14 and Copa Centenario, where he has better surrounding talent like Donovan and McBride and Reyna did, his career is totally different. In the iteration he was in, he was riddled with injuries at inopportune times for the vast majority of his career after he turned 22, and his surrounding talent was largely hot garbage after WC '10 other than Jermaine Jones, and Michael Bradley, and Clint Dempsey. No partnered strikers, no #10 assist machine, just teams crippled by giant holes in the lineup, and an ever-aging and emptying out pool that became worse every year over time from 2010-2019 when he was retired out of the pool indirectly. It's sad. There are worse tales, like John O'Brien, Steve Snow, probably Clint Mathis, Stuart Holden, Charlie Davies etc, but the way his career played out, was in many ways, its own kind of tragedy of injuries and bad timing.

 

Hate to quibble but one coach was in both of those timelines. And I thought he was put a stake in him done after that but he came back and turned around the Revs. Now he gets a chance to do if he can find the way to San Jose.

If Ferreira was healthy and in that spot that Vasquez miffed he would have scored. He took a lot of flack for only score a hat trick or brace against Caribbean nations but Jamaica is a Caribbean nation.

 

I will try to lay out the case for having a good pitch in these terms:

1. both teams can play gamesmanship (snow or the long wet fragile turf) to enhance their chances to win.
2. both teams play on the same pitch and therefore the disadvantages should be even ...
3. some teams are less physical and more skilled and some are the opposite ...
4. a crappy field does not enhance quality play and in some cases can risk player injury ....
5. there are resource issues with many countries in that they just cannot put in place and sustain a good field ...

all other things being equal - I would think that MOST teams in the CONCACAAF want to see improved play - and a better pitch allows the focus to be on the player and the team and not on the pitch - and enhances overall quality.

or we could just also be skeptics and say that some teams in CONCACAAF don't ever think their quality/skills will improve and the only way to win is to put advantages in play for themselves by taking away the quality of the opposition ... however I view this situation as rather pessimistic ...

IF FIFA could exercise some adult leadership over CONCACAAF - they could persuade the majority of the teams that sustaining at least 1 or 2 high quality pitches for national team matches (mens and womens) is of key importance.

or we can just be skeptics and say "the heck with it" - snow in Denver in February. The best way to win is to take away all quality on the pitch.

back to regularly scheduled programming.

 

I acknowledged the MF stuff in my original. But Clint and Landon were both second strikers at the end.

And to be frank, we should include wide forwards our thinking, so the comparisons to when Clinton and Landon were wide would more apt. Ditto formation switches. 433, 4231, 451, whatever.

The fact that you don't think Wynalda can play shows you are a bit wet behind the ears. And guys like Stewart, Wegerle, Max-Moore, and Wolff were all much better than anyone below Pepi, and probably Pepi as well. I mean, he's a backup in the Dutch league, for crying out loud. And Balogun has some quality, but done mostly nothing.

Other than Pulisic (wide forward), who has been great, we are pretty thin everywhere in attack. Not just at CF. Weah is our 3rd best attacker, and he's essentially a WB. Guys like prime DMB or even Eddie Lewis walk into this 18.

Yes, that 2010 squad (Gomez, Buddle, Finley) was awful at CF, but Clint and Landon still made us dangerous in attack. Altidore-Dempsey-Donovan was much better than what we have now.

 

I absolutely think Wynalda can play. He's pointed out himself that his goal totals were negatively impacted by consistently playing in the midfield out of position, rather than as a striker. He was quite clearly the best pool striker at the time and I never understood it. As I've probably mentioned too often, I was in the stands, in April of '96, cheering on DC United, when Wynalda pulled out the winner in the closing minutes of regulation, hell it was on my side of the stands (Northwest side of San Jose State's stadium). I know him well. Doesn't change the fact that our goals in '94 and '98 were his free kick, an own goal, a busted play that Stewart and was it Tab, turned into gold in '94, and then a McHead moment, in 7 WC games. Not exactly a lot of productivity. They were better at Copa America '95.

 

I think evaluating Arena in '17 is largely impossible because the performance is both compromised, and helter skelter small sample size bias.

Klinsy dropped all the points at home against El Tri, which put us 3 points behind our normal pace. Arena then got an A- in window 2 and 3, collecting 4 from each window, it was window 4 and 5 where the disasters cropped in, at home against Costa Rica, away at Honduras (nearly) and away at T&T. We all remember the particulars, but its difficult to evaluate his overall performance because if you dig into the results, the only games that stick out as weirdly out of the norm are the home loss to Costa Rica and the road loss to T&T and both were at least partially flukish (We are denied a pretty clear penalty early against Costa Rica, the game is played in an idiotic location, T&T basically get their goals off what, .01 xG, even crazier than the Argentina-Saudi result in some ways. And even then, it didn't matter so long as Mexico and Costa Rica held leads against Honduras and Panama respectively. We all know what happened that day: T&T collected a pair of goals off next to zero xG, both Mexico and Costa Rica surrendered leads in the second half in abjectly ridiculous ways (Ghost Goal in one case, goal off the back of Memo's head bouncing in in the other).

To me, I'm inclined to give Arena a partial muligan there because almost everything that happened was out of his hands: the only part that was a HUGE error was the Costa Rica performance, but that was player and ref based, T&T, the med checks checked out. I think we all disagree w/rolling out the Panama line up again, but it still would have been fine if not for two separate 1 out of 100 chances going in in our game, and in BOTH of the other hex matches. So it really does feel like the soccer Gods were 75-85% of that, along with the team basically just being --- at that point too. Was it really Arena's fault that the USMNT sucked in 2015-2017 other than a small period in the summer of 2016? Doesn't seem like it. Otoh, I'm a Berhalter's fault guy, so I can concede the hypocrisy there.

 

I know we can't run the mowers on our field when it is waterlogged because that creates even more problems with ruts and whatnot. However, I am sure they could have run a few push mowers and cleaned it up if they wanted to.

 

People talk about how fast Usain Bolt is, but I remember Jesse Owens.

Jesse Owens would leave Usain Bolt in the dust.

Similar argument?

 

Pepi has 1/2 as many national team goals as Joe-Max in 1/3 as many games. He's scored 26 goals in the Eredivisie, while Moore scored 21 in the German second division. I'm old enough to have fond memories of Joe-Max, but it's Pepi by a mile.

 

People can't make arguments like that in track or swimming where there are objective measurements for performance and we know that some kid who is the best US U-17 sprinter in the 100m is faster than Olympic gold medal winners from the early 20th century.

 

Jesse Owens ran 10.3 from a standing start on a cinder track wearing inch long spikes.

 

Great points made, but starvation will never be an issue in Jamaica...lots of fruits and stuff to eat and in general a Jamaican wil never let another Jamaican starve. It's one of these weird good habits in Jamaica...sharing food.

 

Can't get Red Stripe to sponsor a field?

 

"if they wanted to" - indeed.