USA vs. England PBP

Discussion in 'USA Women: News and Analysis' started by mingyung, Apr 2, 2011.

  1. dsirias

    dsirias Member

    Oct 26, 2007
    My apologies. One tends to forget about Akers She got much less press but had skill to burn. I really finally think the men " get it ". We'll always be in the market for big fast guys who can destroy. But those who can create! Ah that is where brains and skill are required. Only now is the USA men youth system beginning to make that skilled market a priority. There should be no shame in following suite So I amend my assertion. One day an MLS academy will produce a Michelle Akers. She might even be named Michelle. But sadly I maintain she still is only 6 years old right now.
     
  2. Anthony

    Anthony Member+

    Chelsea
    United States
    Aug 20, 1999
    Chicago
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This was the moment Women's soccer changed

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iba7RiOuvEQ"]YouTube - Brazil Marta Amazing Goal vs USA (World Cup China)[/ame]

    Before this moment, it was about who was stronger and more fit.
     
  3. Batfink

    Batfink Member+

    May 23, 2010
    Attilan
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    I totally agree that the continued drive for bigger faster players has held the WNT program back. But as you have first hand knowledge of what the U.S. finest players looked like, would you not agree the modern players are no worse, but are no better either?

    The college game helped produce talents such as Akers and Hamm, but has there been anything like them since. No. Thank's to strides in the youth game by FIFA, what's now required since then to be an elite player on the global stage has substantially shifted.

    When a not so stellar Wambach is still the most potent force from that early U.S. college legacy, something's not right. Other star name creative college talents sadly continuously fail to reproduce dominating performances on the world stage.

    Yeah great point.

    You look at all the U.S. performances in that WWC up to that game, and they get through each one with deep reserves of fitness and grit. Once they came up against Brazil it was like day and night. You couldn't help but feel you were witnessing the birth of a new bench mark of how good a women's team could and should be.

    Marta decides in a 15 min period to produce a series of moment's, where skill meets imagination in embarrassing fashion. Confirming a new model of what a top player can do, showing a obvious need for the WNT program to move forward. Instead they do a quick patch fix, scramble an Olympic win, giving justification for the USSF to resume another 3 years of what we see now.

    After a decent showing in South Africa, the U.S. men should be headed to Brazil in 2014 with the programs finest collection of players. The expectations on the women's side though are still very high, but the poor level of play has given extra importance to a good showing in Germany. Due to the slow to act nature of the USSF, how they play may define a generations progress or failure for another 10 years.

    Whilst the guys have breathing room to improve every four years, the girls are lumped with the not so simple plan of having to relentlessly win. Where did this come from? The WNT program's reality in playing standards is increasingly similar to the needs of the men's program, but these issues will be solved by the men's system first.

    With the WWC expanding to 24 teams in 2015, Germany is the WNT's best chance to have a deep run. Due to the increasing global talent pool, it only gets tougher after this one not easier.
     
  4. scotty13

    scotty13 New Member

    Sep 8, 2009
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Batfink,

    I think, overall, you are correct with a few exceptions like, Hamm and Akers and Jennings who was one of the great one-on-one players with the ball glued to her feet. Our game has not grown: it has not evolved. Our player's athleticism continues to grow, but the intuitive side, the understanding has not grown.

    I am trying to think of a central mid in the early 2000's that I really liked. Her skill, passing, vision was excellent but she rarely saw the field- cant think of her name- getting old. Anyway, the power players eclipsed her and all like her.

    Brazilians aren't soccer players from the womb, but at the earliest age they are allowed to express themselves, learn to control the ball under any kind of pressure, understand the spatial part of the game, see the ball moving before the ball is actually played. We can do that to, but it is an entirely different mentality at the earliest age, continuing thru club and then on to college.
     
  5. MRAD12

    MRAD12 Member+

    Jun 10, 2004
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    scotty13, Batfink, I agree with you.

    We have no imaginative players and really skilled players. We have speedsters, bone-crushers, rough tacklers, and a couple players with hard shots. Not much skill, IMO. And please folks don't tell me HAO has big-time skill. She is fast and pretty much can keep the ball close to her feet while hauling ass down field. There's no creativity there. Creativity is gon from the USWNT. These players play like robots.

    But that's the nature of US soccer culture IMO, from U-8's all the way up to high school and college. The kids that do have skill are not chosen or go and play for the country their dad was born, ie Teresa Noyola because there is no room for a skilled player like her on the USWNT.
    I see this all the time in Chicago youth leagues. Sure kids are taught to win and play hard, etc. But rarely do you see a kid who you know at an early age is going to have raw skill when she/he gets older.
    The youth leagues and coaches are too much interested in winning so that they get more kids so that they get more money, rather then developing skills.

    Our USWNT at this time resembles any youth league you want to name in this country. Kids playing like robots with an emphasis on speed and toughness and very little individual flare or skill or vision.
     
  6. ForeverLOST108

    ForeverLOST108 Member+

    Jan 23, 2010
    Orlando
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What do you mean by "creativty"? Do you mean more of the way our players play the game or skill on the ball? Because it seems you're insinuating skill. Sure, we don't have a team of players who are cheeky and beat players 1v1 by doing some time of move. But does anyone? I think Rapinoe is pretty crafty and although she gets a lot of criticism for her lack of defense but you can't deny she is crafty and makes things happen. It seems everyone on here likes to compare us to Germany. Except, I don't see too many "skilled" players on Germany. Prinz plays just like Wambach, except she is faster and Wambach is better in the air. Gringz is fast and she does have some good footwork at times. Bajramaj is probably their most "skilled" player who plays very similar to Rapinoe but is a bit faster. Up-and-coming Pope is their equivalent of Alex Morgan. Simone Laudehr is a big center mid that tackles well and is good both defensively and offensively. Just like Boxx. I'm not seeing the argument of lack of skill because Germany is built very similarly to the U.S. However, I would agree the skill in the predictable fashion the US plays is a very big problem. But the US has the personal to beat anyone so I don't agree on an argument that says the US lacks skill
     
  7. Lorrie Fair

    Lorrie Fair Member

    Jul 31, 2010
    this is one of the dumbest post ive ever read.
     
  8. Batfink

    Batfink Member+

    May 23, 2010
    Attilan
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    USA are nothing like Germany in the female players they produce. You would think the last two edition's of the WWC would have shown people that fact. However there is a persistant stubborn notion that somehow USA are still the same or better than the back to back champs :confused:. The subtle technical atributes of the German game seem's to fly right over blinkered die hard U.S. fan's head's. Yes USA can battle with the best, but thats all they do; battle.

    The U.S. system has skillful players, but it's skill valued within U.S. circles and never shaped to succeed outside them. Once players leave college they don't know how to progress said skills, or use them within a more developed team ethic. Germany may not have a Marta, but that's because German football culture has it's own successful characteristics and models of what creative players do for them to be successful.

    England in the last U.S. TV friendly displayed a technical passing ability with interchangeable positional attributes that the U.S. never produced in the whole 90 mins, let alone the past 4 years. I thought England were technically better than the U.S. in 07, and are now just developing the athletic nature of a top tier nation. Were England all over the field no more skillful than the U.S.?

    The only thing that I can think may shape peoples thoughts to the misguided paring of German/U.S. similarities, is the athletic nature of the modern female German footballer. What you miss in doing this though, is that Germany have produced athletes to match it's high value in it's players technique. The football German teams have been able to produce for 10 years because of this has continued to move the female game forward.

    Having players all over the field who can influence a game with cohesive ball and player movement, can be just as effective as any flick or twist of a Marta level player. The team aspect of these skills doesn't allways have the same wow factor of watching a speacial individual, but individual flair is usually only effective in wining titles within at well devised team ethic. That's in less your a freak like Maradona, and so far like every other player in the history of the game, even Marta has not been able to pull off that trick again.

    Watch one frauen Bundesliga game and you see just how different the modern German youth coming through really is when compared to her U.S. positional equivalent. So to then compare a golden era German player like Prinz to Wambach is hilarious considering what they have produced on the field. In the not so distant future it will be the same with young players like Popp and Morgan too, as the younger Popp is already further ahead of her American rival.

    If people don't, or won't recognise the reality of the situation, the WWC only being 2 months away should hopefully set the record straight. USA don't produce players or football right now in the mold of Germany, and to say they do is delusional.
     
  9. MRAD12

    MRAD12 Member+

    Jun 10, 2004
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Why? Because I mention HAO, UNC fan? I never said I dislike her. She is fast and has a role to play on the USWNT. But Brazilian type of skill she does not have.

    I know I shouldn't mention names in the women's game because there are all sorts of passions. Someones favorite player from their favorite college, a parent maybe, a person who got to know a player from their WPS team closely, etc. People get really insulted personally over a women's player as opposed to men. But this is just my opinion. I've met her before. Great kid. Very polite. But I don't see HAO as having any extrordinary ball at your feet skills other then being real fast. Sorry.
    Tobin Heath. Casey Nogueira. They have skills.

    Maybe I grew up with the Yugoslav mentality of playing soccer where skill on the ball was a norm.
     
  10. BrooklynSoccer

    BrooklynSoccer Member+

    Jan 22, 2008
    I do believe we develop some very strong technical talent. Heath, Casey N, Morgan, Rapinoe are very technically strong - I think they'd make almost any team in the world.
    We have other strong technical players that Pia has not chosen to play - Tina D, Noyola, etc.

    And for all the "usa only promotes big fast players - F*CK, this certainly isn't the case with our present backline.

    I'd say this is the slowest most non-athletic back line in the history of US soccer and that is all thanks to Pia. Other great options are available, they just aren't on the team.
     
  11. Batfink

    Batfink Member+

    May 23, 2010
    Attilan
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Besides Rapinoe who I feel is still a player with huge holes in her game, have those other players risen to the top in spite of the U.S. system or because of it? I would think they exist in spite of the system, as they have been anything but the norm.

    When I think elite technique, I think it's the ability to receive the ball, then control and pass it accurately at speed or in tight spaces. Having the speed of thought to read the play and find spaces or create space for others, is vital to a top players technique too. Only a few of those types of player are currently around the WNT pool, showing little to no consistency in the process.

    LOL, I don't think the back line is that weak physically. I bet it you asked fan's of other nations about their teams defense you would see a very common theme begin to appear. I mean Germany are so weak at the center right now due to injury, they have saved a spot on the WC squad for a player who's has only played 1 serious game all season.

    All defenses are up against some of the most technical and athletic forwards the female game has ever produced. No team can stop chances being created against them at the highest level. When the U.S. was giving away 1v1's against the likes of Costa Rica in WC qualifying, then there was massive problem. It's not that bad now, but it has a lot room for improvement too.

    Being big and quick won't guarantee a strong defender any more, But it's as a team the U.S. don't defend well. The U.S. need to find a proper balance between it's back line and mids again. Knowing when to drop deep, or step up seems to be the biggest issue with the CB partnership, because of the opposition mids never having there runs tracked. Fullbacks have no cover when forced to defend, but produce little to no offence while the team is on the attack. It's as if players still don't know how to play there role within the team unit.
     
  12. BrooklynSoccer

    BrooklynSoccer Member+

    Jan 22, 2008
    I never said physically week, the current back line is physically very strong. - I said slow and as good as athletes as previous back lines or other players who are currently avail.
    For example, when i say not great athletes- they are bad passers, they aren't real good with their feet.

    When i talk about their speed, i mean they are not fast.
    For example, when they get beat there is no way in hell they are catching up to person that just beat them. Mitts, Rampone, Kate M could all do that 4 years ago, so could Chupa - pretty much none of the starting back line can do that right now.

    i've heard you complain numerous times about the defense, so is this dissent just to write more?

    There's really no response to your first question, but heath and morgan and tina d all came up through the national youth system
     
  13. Batfink

    Batfink Member+

    May 23, 2010
    Attilan
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Yes, I think the U.S. defence is poor. I just don't think it's as simple to solve as more foot speed in covering the ground, or size to shut players down. The partnerships between the mid field and defence has been awful the few times I have seen them play. The U.S. are best when their defenders and mids sit as one solid unit. When the U.S. try to become expansive everybody looks confused.

    I know he's not everybody's favourite person, but I once read a comment from Sunil Gulati a while back talking about the potential of U.S. soccer when Donovan had just emerged on the scene. Gulati mentioned that you can't measure the success of U.S. soccer off the back of one Landon Donovan level player. It's only when the U.S. can replicate Donovan's quality regularly throughout the NT that you can say the Fed and the sport is doing it's job moving forward.

    The U.S. youth system can't replicate Donovan's attributes, because they could have locked him in a cupboard for years at a time and he still would have been the same player you see now. They didn't know how he worked, all they knew is that he did. Some players are always going to be naturally more gifted at understanding the game of soccer, it's up to good coaching to take them to the next level.

    Heath, Tina Dimartino, and Nogueira are examples of U.S. players that complement the idea of a U.S. development system having very little to do in the moulding of it's top creative talent. If these girls were the norm within the U.S. system, the WNT program would be instead built around what they or players like them could potentially produce, and not just the size, strength, and speed qualities of a Llyod, Wambach etc...

    They get picked for NT duty because they are so gifted with the ball, then get poorly deployed as the coaches don't know how to use them. Doesn't exactly speak volumes for the program that supposedly made them.
     
  14. donaldball

    donaldball New Member

    Sep 24, 2009
    But they don't even get picked, that's precisely the point, isn't it? Of those three, only Heath is on the NT pool, and she's unlikely to be a starter for at least another year. Nogueira is all but ignored by the full NT, and Dimartino is yet another in a long line of small, technical, highly mobile midfielders for which the NT has never seemed to have a use.
     
  15. casocrfan

    casocrfan Member

    Nov 25, 2004
    San Francisco
    There are plenty of talented youth out there right now. Just come to CA to watch them play beautiful, intelligent, tactical and athletic soccer (and if they are here, I'm sure the are in other states as well). The selection process is what is broken. Hire a coach who emphasizes skill and tactical awareness and you'll see a turnaround over night.

    The soccer culture in the US is modeled after everything else here - capitalism and a free market system. Right now, producing big strong players is what is rewarded. Change what is rewarding and watch all the youth programs and colleges change quite quickly.

    If you wait for MLS to take charge you better have 20 years worth of patience. An MLS franchise can barely support one developmental youth team let alone a women's league. If you try to force what works in other places (Germany) on the US culture it will fail... it's not part of US culture. There isn't one blueprint to follow - the Brazilians do it one way, the German's another, etc.

    To make the necessary changes in the US you have to address what make the system go.... money.
     
  16. sitruc

    sitruc Member+

    Jul 25, 2006
    Virginia
    Remember a few years ago when all of the lines practiced separately so the backline rarely worked with the midfield or the forwards? We all thought the coaching change would fix the many issues with the backline being so disconnected from the rest of the team. Pia hasn't fixed it and an argument could be made that the flat back has gotten worse.
     
  17. Batfink

    Batfink Member+

    May 23, 2010
    Attilan
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    If America want's to show the world what freedom looks like, they should pass out footage of how the WNT continuously never track runs, because they take up so many bad positions. I mean on England's second goal Kelly Smith looked like Marta in slow mo, and absolutely nobody was near her for the whole of her run.

    The U.S. back line looks confused to me. The mids let opposition AM run at the heart of the defence, at times creating all kinds of indecision between the two lines of four. The wings are a constant dead zone, with no real attacking threats, or defensive cover. You could be right in saying USA's strongest attribute may have gotten worse, but that doesn't make sense :confused:

    Chalupny's proved to be a world class player, but should her and Markgraf really be missed that much? Compared to what's around now, I don't think so.
     
  18. BrooklynSoccer

    BrooklynSoccer Member+

    Jan 22, 2008
    every time i watch the replay of both goals I laugh, out loud. first of all, you see Lloyd and Boxx slowly walk-jogging in the back ground and you see bhuehler run to the opposite post while leaving two players wide open in front of goal and then the simple boxx out of amy L.
    The back line continually seems to be lost...but i guess that is also the case for most of the team.
    I will say, when heath, morgan and cheney were in - i saw a glimmer of hope at least.
     
  19. FawcettFan14

    FawcettFan14 Member+

    Mar 19, 2004
    Colorado
    Given the April camp roster released yesterday, I think this is probably the best we can hope for come World Cup.

    -----------------------Solo------------------------
    ---Krieger---LePeilbet---Beuhler---Rampone---
    ----------------------Boxx------------------------
    -----O'Reilly--------Rapinoe--------O'Hara-------
    --------------Cheney----Morgan-----------------

    Subs: Barnhardt, Harris, Sauerbrunn, Cox, Averbuch, Tarpley, Heath, Lloyd, Wambach, Rodriguez

    I know its almost heresy to recommend benching Wambach, but her nagging heel injury is really hampering her movement and rendering her ineffective. She looks slow and frustrated. The offense picked up considerably when Cheney and Morgan came on. We have no way of knowing how they would do starting together because its never happened before (that I can remember anyway), but based on current form, they should be getting more minutes than either Abby or A-rod.
     
  20. BrooklynSoccer

    BrooklynSoccer Member+

    Jan 22, 2008
    I really don't like this backline - they have proven to be..well, bad. If we want to build an attack, we need players who can help build that attack by making solid, smart choices/passes - not to mention have great defensive abilities.

    Heath is def my central starter over Rapinoe - just better all-around player and much better on d.
    I think Lloyd and Rapinoe could be both amazing second half subs, especially if we are down. I wouldn't be apposed to sitting HAO either. i just don't like Lloyd in the middle, dictating play - she can't do it.

    Agree with Cheney and Morgan - both starers for me too.
     
  21. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    my observation the times I have seen her play is that she's great athlete and really flashy. Guaranteed for a good nutmeg or two.

    Misses her defensive assignments on a regular basis.
     
  22. Batfink

    Batfink Member+

    May 23, 2010
    Attilan
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    It's all about balance. Right now the U.S. have to many bad player pairings around the field. To make matters more complex everybody can only hope it can't get any worse, as nobody knows if the bench players can do better on a consistent basis.

    It's one thing to see the midfield consistently under perform, but if Rampone is the starting LB :eek: don't expect to see anything pretty come Germany. The U.S. have got to some how find a defensive system that can hold firm, when the mid field disappears for periods of the game. If games become to open and the U.S. have to deploy run and gun football, they will get burned.
     
  23. FawcettFan14

    FawcettFan14 Member+

    Mar 19, 2004
    Colorado
    Sticking Rampone out on the left isn't ideal, but are there really any better options with the players Pia has chosen? Even at age 35-36, Rampone is faster and more mobile than either Beuhler or LePeilbet (who should not, under any circumstances, play outside fullback), and she has previous experience playing on both the right and left (although not for several years). Plus, Beuhler/LePeilbet together (while Christie was on maternity leave) looked to be a more secure partnership than Rampone/LePeilbet.

    It seems like there are four locks for Germany on defense (in the mind of the coaching staff): LePeilbet, Beuhler, Rampone, and Krieger. The others will likely be two of Mitts, Cox, Sauerbrunn, or Engen. Are there better options in WPS that Pia is overlooking? Of course. But realistically, this is what its going to be. Can you see her benching Rampone in favor of Cox, the only conventional left back in camp, but who hasn't been starting lately? Or Sauerbrunn, a player with a grand total of eight caps? Or Mitts, who looked very uncomfortable playing on the left for Boston in 2009 and has spent most of the last year hobbling.

    Now, a tactically flexible and sophisticated coach might have, over the last year, tried some alternative formations, possibly a 3-5-2, with Rampone, LePeilbet, and Beuhler playing as three central defenders. But Pia has shown that she is committed to the traditional 4-4-2. Given the current personnel, what other options do we have?
     
  24. donaldball

    donaldball New Member

    Sep 24, 2009
    I wish Engen would get a look at center-back. At UNC, Anson gambled and converted a competent, energetic striker into the heart of perhaps the best, most organized defensive line UNC has ever produced.
     
  25. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    It was a 3 back formation right?

    Read the previous post to yours..
     

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