Post-match: USA vs England 11/15/2018

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Susaeta, Nov 15, 2018.

  1. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Klinsmann made him crown prince when he selected him to start for u23's in Olympic quali's.
     
  2. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Agree to disagree.
     
  3. ChrisSSBB

    ChrisSSBB Member+

    Jun 22, 2005
    DE
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    First touches look good until time and space constrict. That is what happens against teams like England and Italy. You can see the difference in how their players receive and distribute the ball in tight spaces vs ours.
     
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  4. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Much of the team plays club ball in Europe.
     
  5. ChrisSSBB

    ChrisSSBB Member+

    Jun 22, 2005
    DE
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They do, but they aren't at the level of being able to make a squad like England or Italy except for a few players, maybe.
     
  6. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    The players were judged to have sufficient technique to earn contracts and playing time at a good level in Europe. The NT's tactical set-up may have more to do with how poorly the team look. Best to hold off categorical judgements on technical qualities until a new coach arrives.
     
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  7. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I think this is the major difference between MLS/B2/Championship and the major leagues. The speed of play is faster and available space is noticeably constrained; therefore, simple plays become challenged. Even a half second makes all the difference in the world.

    Doesn't mean that all minor league players can't adapt but rather that success at slower speed doesn't translate into success when the game speeds up just like lot of Heisman Trophy winners can't get a job in the NFL and less-heralded but more athletic players are able to compete at the higher level.
     
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  8. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I don’t think it’s about Europe. MLS itself is a “good level” and equivalent or better to many European leagues.

    That being said, the gap between the best teams/leagues (“major leagues”) and even teams at a “good level” is meaningfully significant.

    Here's their team and where they play (rank per 538)

    Francesco Acerbi / Lazio (27)
    Leonardo Bonucci / Juventus (7)
    Emerson Palmieri / Chelsea (8)
    Mattia De Sciglio/ Juventus (7)
    Stefano Sensi / Sassuelo (91)
    Marco Verratti / PSG (6)
    Nicoló Barella / Cagliari (115)
    Kevin Lasagna / Udinese (117)
    Domenico Berardi / Sassuelo (91)
    Federico Chiesa / Fiorentina (45)
    Roberto Gagliardini / Inter Milan (16)
    Matteo Politano / Inter Milan (16)
    Moise Kean / Juventus (7)
    Vincenzo Grifo / Hoffenheim (32)

    These clubs are so far above where everyone on our game squad (other than CP) play. Look at their starting defense....

    For example,

    Trapp / Crew (299)
    Acosta / Rapids (534)
    Delgado / TFC (280)
    Lletget / Galaxy (335)
    Nyugen / Galaxy (335)
    Moore / reus (576)

    The gap is quite large.
     
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  9. Poolasick

    Poolasick Member

    Manchester United
    Nov 16, 2018
    They may have a sufficient level of technique to play at a good level in Europe but they might not have been signed for that reason. Yeah, they have that baseline technique required but they will be surrounded by players with better technique at their club. They will fit into a system and will play the role of a destroying midfield or a powerful runner or a strong, battling forward. These are the attributes I associate with US players. Technique is near the bottom of the list of strengths.

    I mean, someone like McKennie who plays at a higher level than most of his national teammates isn't considered a 'technical' player. He's not going to dictate the tempo of a game and control possession like a Kroos or Modric. US don't produce players like that right now. They may never. A big football nation like England have produced one elite level player of that variety in the last 15-20 years in Scholes. So there is no point in England trying to be like Spain because we don't produce the players to play that game. It's the same with the US. You got to play to your strengths and go with what you are producing. And be honest with yourself as a nation about your players. Sure, get excited about your young players, but look at other nations to see how you compare before getting too excited and expecting the world from them.

    I agree the tactical set up hasn't helped them, but that's because they were playing like a technical team (at least what I saw against England). Usa need to be hard to beat, disciplined, physical and direct with the players they have right now, in my opinion.
     
  10. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Additionally, they play in the same culture and know where their teammate is and what he is going to do.
     
  11. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    We don't play the guys who can "dictate" pace etc., because US Soccer is catering to the fan and the fan wants berserker ball (the vulgar term is "in your face football"). We are in the "athletic cycle". it has to crash and burn and we can start using more technical players.

    USA has the chance to develop the players you describe because we are not under the pressure at Academies to produce "product" for the EPL brand. The question is if we have leaders with the imagination to grasp that opportunity.
     
  12. Poolasick

    Poolasick Member

    Manchester United
    Nov 16, 2018
    Its alot harder than just that. England tried for 10 years to play like Spain, Germany etc. The powers that be were pulling in that direction and young english players were learning from some of the best players in the world but its hard for a young player to go against his countries soccer dna. Culture has alot to do with how a nation plays soccer. US will always be an 'athletic' nation in my opinion.
     
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  13. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    I disagree because the American personality is more "show-off cowboy" than "big ape". Of course, if you are lining up in a helmet and body armor against somebody who is a 300 pound ape, it's best to be an ape. That does not happen so much in soccer.

    It's hard to overcome the "quant" side that takes over the management side. Soccer used to have a camp to pick college players which was a copy of what happens in tackle football where the coaches get together and everybody agrees who the best player is based on a common measurement and nobody loses his job because they are only doing what the numbers tell them. For example they measure how high the candidates jump - in a game that is played on the ground!!

    Lately, these types of evaluations have been replaced by management going to places like Argentina looking for diamonds in the rough who can bring some inventiveness to the teams in MLS. Our u17 team which lost to England at WC was an inventive side and I didn't see anybody regretting the personality of the team. I was quite happy to see us trying stuff. The idea that America will win the WC because we are more athletic than Brazil or Italy is ridiculous. We aren't.
     
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  14. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    The gap has always been large, though would be a lot smaller with the Euro-based players. The performances haven't always been so poor, however.
     
  15. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Those are silly stereotypes, which were never accurate. And the players being signed in Europe fit a variety of styles.
    Schalke have been experimenting with him at the 10.
    We produce players in that style; they simply haven't been that good!
    England have been a middling soccer country for most of the past 40 years.
    Spain hadn't been the Spain of world conquering fame until quite recently in its history.
    U England fans should heed that advice before advising others.
     
  16. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    England have faced Concacaf teams in group stages of each of the past 3 WCs. The record stands at 1-1-1 with the Concacaf team topping the group twice.

    Let's not get carried away over a friendly.
     
  17. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    The problem is not losing to England B & Italy C in a friendly.

    The problem is how we lost to them. We never had a chance.
     
  18. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    #493 IndividualEleven, Nov 21, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2018
    The team lost to Italy on a 94 minute goal.

    The England game was a tactical mess.
     
  19. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    They dominated the entire match. It got to the point that I felt justice was served when they scored.
     
  20. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    First, 'we had no chance'. Now it's 'but we got dominated'.

    It was a friendly with youngest US team in the modern era.
     
  21. CeltTexan

    CeltTexan Member+

    Sep 21, 2000
    Houston, TX USA
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Correct.

    Italy is imho the ideal barometer for our soccer culture to confront. The Italians are technically sound, always play four in the back, always have a solid goalie, are terrific on the "dead bolt" and counter attack plan and take their dead ball play with acumen. They are the ideal culture that we ought to model after. So the fact that such a young side rebounded from that England rout to go to Italy and do well enough to see out a 0-0 draw to full time, I was ok with what I saw. Indeed they got that match winner but Italy versus the U.S. is always a 1-0 affair. Seriously, it will be 1-0 to either side or 1-1 like when we were the only nation to take points from the eventual World Champions back at Germany'06. Also, IIRC the last time we played them over on their boot, Dempsey found the ball at his feet and slotted home from the top of the 18. We win 1-0.
    Our young team just has so much to learn.
     
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  22. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Same idea chief.
     
  23. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Against Italy, 28% possession with their 19(7) to our 3(1) shots is bad even for our standards.

    And that wasn't even Italy B.

    Young guys, sure, but that's not far from our A-team. The players missing have not proved to be game-changers either, outside McKennie.
     
  24. CeltTexan

    CeltTexan Member+

    Sep 21, 2000
    Houston, TX USA
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree.
    Sarachan did pull Sargent way early as well. The partnership of him and Pulisic is what me n my buddies wanted to close out this year on a bright note. Apparently our Fed and the staff wanted to end 2018 with two encounters that different tactics, pulling starters here and there and ushering on subs were their choice to deploy. Confusing player and supporters alike.
     
  25. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Whatever saves face.
     

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