Post-match: USA v. South Korea - September 6, 2025 - International Friendly

I think we maxed out '95-'97 and '99-'06, and in '09, and '14. I think the rest is open to question, but I think even Sampson had a great run until '98, Arena got the most he could have out of that squad with the endless litany of injuries to promising young players (O'Brien, Mathis, Martino, Johnson, Convey, and on and on and freaking on), Bradley mostly did (though I think with better refs against Algeria, or a better game plan against Slovenia, we make the Quarterfinals, beating Ghana, we lost to Ghana because we were exhausted by matchday 2 and 3 in the group stage, and a bad XI Bradley went with against Ghana).


The real mistakes seemed to happen with youth development and identifying talent in general between probably 2000-2012ish, and that really sabotaged the team's trajectory 2010-2018.

 

I said this before but let me repeat, yep, S. Korea wasn't great, I thought he was just meh, Mexico wasn't great either, I was about 95% him and Tillman being exhausted from carrying the team for 6 weeks and playing 80+ mins a game (Luna) and full games (Tillman). Luna was actually one of the few bright spots in NL and the June Friendlies though, he was a positive there.

His play tailed off after he went back to RSL following the Gold Cup which makes me suspect he's tired.

 

I think Luna is overhyped on here a bit due to him being one of the few "new" players at the Gold Cup to show he could consistently hang. But a large part of that in my opinion is the low bar set by others. But he's also still pretty young, so he is promising. In my view, Luna is (should be) on the very fringe of the 23/26, where if he steps up his game materially over the next 9 months or if there are injuries, then he would warrant a depth spot.

 

He sure makes it look that way.

(I realize I've probably missed some joke that I'd need to be 20 years older to get)

 

I imagine if he transfers to Stoke in January your opinion will then match my current one.

 

I went back and looked at some of the SK game and actually Pulisic and Luna had some very nice interchanging and play together going on. I think if you add Tillman in there it could be very nice. Unless Weah or Reyna's form improves I think you play with Luna, Tillman and Pulisic in the attacking mid. I think some of the problem in this game looked like Luna and Pulisic kept having to drop very deep to recieve the ball, because we were relying on Adams and Berhalter to build from the back and they aren't very good at that.

 

That might have been the worst I have seen Adams play for the USMNT. I think we have enough data points to say it was a hiccup but you are right in that he will never be a play-maker from the DM position. Berhalter is just a replacement-level player at best so that is a position that could improve w/ Tessmann, Morris, Wes and Johnny. I also think that Gio could be on the same field w/ Luna, CP, Tillman and Weah. Lastly... we really started to pass out of the back well when we switched to 3CBs. The passing angles/movements are so much better in this set up. The whole 2CB to FB to DM back to 2CB tango is predictable... and easy to press as well IMO.

 

What does "should" have to do with it? Sargeant and Wright and Agye "should" be nowhere near an international team that aspires to do anything... but here we are. Their competition isn't good enough to keep them out.

What's the list of attacking mids look like that's gonna push Luna out to the "fringe"?

 

Assuming they are all healthy and in good form, Pulisic, Weah, Tillman, McKennie, and Reyna, all clear Luna by a significant margin. Then there are a number of guys like Musah, the Aaronson Brothers, Haji Wright, Zendejas who all have legit arguments and claims to being as good or better than Luna. (Also depending on the tactics and how the team wants to play).

Then you have guys like Parades (if he could ever stay healthy), Griffen Yow, Cole Campbell that are all wild cards. That's 13 player right there, given all the differing circumstances involved in this crazy game, that could easily push Luna to the "fringe", especially if he stagnates and doesn't continue to push himself and develop into a better player.

 

Even assuming good form for all involved, seems to me the skillset of Luna still puts him on the roster and likely not near fringe. I'd not want to suggest that some of these players couldn't make things bleaker for Luna from here... there's still a lot of time left. But personally:

• I'm not relying on Gio at all -- no reason to from here, no clue where he will be mentally or with fitness in 9 months
• The Aaronsons and the kids you mentioned are not in my consideration -- nowhere near my roster unless with their production really pops AND they get time with the US and look at least as good/impactful as Luna has, no reason to think that will happen IMO
• McKennie, Musah, Wright are not really in competition with Luna for a spot -- they might be able to be "attacking mids" but Luna's skillset is unique in comparison to them, and in particular I really, really hope to never see Musah as an "attacking mid" for the US ever again

So, the credible list as I see it is CP, Tillman, and Weah... and maybe McKennie. And even then Luna is likely next up. So that's 5 attacking mids, all 5 of which can cover multiple positions.

I just see no reason from where we are now to think a statement like that -- "Luna should be on the fringe" -- makes any sense. These others you've listed, the supposed deep competition for the role, right now most of them are quite literally on the fringe. Luna is involved, and performing. Right now, this is about as close to a no-brainer as we're gonna get with this player pool.

But again, things could obviously change.

 

I agree with this with one exception. What about Tillman??

 

Here's my 23, based mostly on now but also projecting a bit:

Goalkeepers:
- Matt Freese
- Matt Turner
- [Wildcard]

Defenders:
- Antonee Robinson
- Sergino Dest
- Joe Scally
- Chris Richards
- Cameron Carter-Vickers
- Mark McKenzie
- Tim Ream
- Miles Robinson


Central Midfielders:
- Tyler Adams
- Johnny Cardoso
- Yunus Musah
- Weston McKennie
- Tanner Tessmann


Attackers:
- Christian Pulisic
- Malik Tillman
- Tim Weah
- Gio Reyna
- Folarin Balogun
- Ricardo Pepi
- Josh Sargent


26-man roster options / next up depending on needs:
- Brenden Aaronson
- Haji Wright
- Diego Luna
- Jon Tolkin
- Noahkai Banks
- Gianlucca Busio
- Paxsten Aaronson

So Luna is on the fringe of the 23/26, depending how other things fall. Reyna is the biggest question mark in my 23, and if he is out my first replacement is B Aaronson.

 

Tillman is right in there, what do you mean? He's more of a lock than most, at this point.

 

For a second I thought I confused you with another poster. No your comment was from Friday so 4 days ago.

https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/us-v-south-korea-sept-6-2025.2135723/page-51#post-43197763

I did not see any lack of effort from European players so I wanted to know if you saw any during the Korea match. Sargent, OK I will pay attention on my rewatch.

 

Son appeared to be offside when he scored for S Korea. Given the usual lousy Concacaf refs and lack of VAR, I’m not surprised he was awarded that goal. The second goal was a scramble and should have been stopped by a more talented defense.

 

I mean, I think your roster is largely reasonable. And while I'm sure there will be some Poch selections that cause people to tear their hair out (not me, because I know how this goes and it happens every single time) the US WC squad will look a lot like that, I'd wager. But you've included Gio, you've included 5 CMs, and you've included 5 CBs. What reason do we have to think not just one, or two, but all of that is going to happen? Considering how Poch plays, the options at CB, and the reality of Reyna, I think we're probably much closer to only one of those things happening from where we are now.

And Luna is next up off that list of 26, he's clear of all those guys right now far as I can tell. So I mean, I guess this just comes down to what fringe means? Because with his skillset, what he's shown lately, how Poch plays, and what he's up against... Luna feels like a pretty easy selection. We will see what changes, but I'm not holding my breath for some impressive demonstration from the likes of Aaronson, Wright, or even Gio over the next 9 months that's changing any of that.

I hope I'm wrong about Gio. That would be a wonderful surprise. Just can't count on it.

 

I’m not sure I accept the idea that we couldn’t find a good manager for roughly Berhalter money. Up and coming managers (probably American) or experienced managers retiring from club soccer might be good fits. But there would have to be careful and coherent job searches done at a deliberate pace. So, for example, let’s try to avoid, mid-cycle hires after a rushed, botched hiring. Plus, if we’re paying $2 million a year rather than $4 million, if we do have to buy out a contact and replace a manager, we can do it without messing up the budget for the whole federation and/or being beholden to financiers who pony up extra dough for Captain Fancy. But I’m fine with paying $4 million a year for a properly chosen manager. I’m not okay with paying that much so that the USSF can appease angry fans by pointing to the manager’s CV and salary.

Whatever we’re paying, I agree that the entitled factions of our fan base need to stop whining about results and progress. I don’t mean we shouldn’t be trying to make progress on the USMNT (and USWNT). But I think what we should have learned from the fast few USMNT managers is that progress is not going to be driven substantially by the managerial hire. Our players are getting better, but so are a lot of our peer competitors’. Setting aside peaks and valleys driven by good and bad luck on the field, sustainable progress is going to be frustratingly slow. That doesn’t mean the USSF shouldn’t be aiming to get better managers—especially better-suited managers—but I doubt we’re going to see huge improvements under any given manager. It’ll take being sufficiently right about several managers and sufficiently smart about replacing those who don’t work out.

 

i dont know why im so nit-picky today (thats not true- its the dread of what is going to happen tonight), but please dont take it personally @grandinquisitor28. ive just found my cue to start yapping in two of your threads today...

i do think mex has a bit more quality than you seem to, but more importantly theyre above a certain threshold- while it cant be overstated how truly terrible our gc comp was. i also think youre understating how worn down and outmatched we were against a merely decent mex side. we could barely get the ball out of our half, im not sure either luna or tillman are the first place id look to explain that...

but that threshold i mentioned isnt based on any rankings, labels (world cup level, as if that means anything) or reputations. we have beat truly terrible teams who dont meet that threshold and gotten handily beaten by every team over it. turkey, south korea, mexico...those are decent sides at best. sui and japan tonight are well clear of those three but we still arent even approaching "world beater" declarations, here.

and on a completely different topic i think its pretty asinine that anyone would think effort/workrate is the, or even a problem with sarge (or his fit with the nats if you prefer to look at it that way). i periodically explain that problem and its just as regularly dismissed- pepi, balo, even agyemang play moving towards goal. sarge moves away from it. its not a target man/hold up thing- he doesnt move into the box. his most common touch takes the ball away from goal (and not in a layoff to an onrushing attacker way- in a lets build from scrach at midfield kind of way). hes greggs dream striker, developed into that defense/pressing first, second and third style of non-attack that you can see in practically ever yo-yo team in the world. sure, you can go for goals in the colaship or 2bund but youre at a top flight (or intl level) its hold on dear life mode.

so to address the effort issue you start with that fact that hes facing, moving, thinking about moving away from goal. but hes not some clueless dummy either- he recognizes the balls played for him to run on to (usually in mid air when his momentum is already in coming back), but even so he turns and runs every one of them down. and i dont know that hes prohibitively slow- im def not saying hes to more than 1 out of 10 of them either- but thats effort. its actually outstanding effort, however useless.

this feels unusual for me cause i am decidedly not in the defending sarge business- but a lack of effort, or questionable workrate isnt close to valid complaint imo. hes just a wholly bad fit for us outside of the very specific ways gregg had us play in matches we were clearly the "underdog" in.

and just since im already here no- pumping in more crosses wouldnt make him any more of a viable option either.

 

I am showing the roster I would pick. Not Poch, because his personnel choices are poor in my estimation. And I'm saying Luna [should] be on the fringe, based on what he's shown and how I rate the players. (I rate Aaronson over him, for instance).

 

Look at 2:30 where the ball has already left lee's foot, both Ream and Blackmon kept him on.

 

Yeah, my position for a long time has been the benefit of a top manager is that they are used to running/being involved in a top program - and I'd hope that the improvements to the program in the margins, from players to training to staff to etc etc would improve a bit with each - and each will bring different aspects of the previous success. There's not magic fairy dust - and there's also no reason to think a "new" manager with modern sports ideas (who could easily be American) can't do the same, but, as you suggest, it has to be a reasoned, planned, cohesive strategy. One manager is not going to magically change the program. A commitment to excellence at every level (whatever a fluffy word like that might mean) is what might drive it forward by inches.

 

Right. Because of what happened in CM and at fullback. It's a pretty high line with basically zero pressure on the ball. I could make that pass to Son running in behind. CBs completely hung out to dry. So should try to avoid this selective slo-mo replay game... this result was if anything a collective failure.

 

No you could not make that pass, you could not even be on the field.

90% of goals scored is because several mistakes were made. That goal started when Pulisic shot out to press the Korean CB from his AMR slot and no one rotated to help press or cover the wide open right side of the US defense.

 

son of a...

aaronson! i completely blanked on him in my wc roster prediction (while totally including him in a joke post on the full pool i posted just a couple of hours before). i even went out of my way to mention how concerning the rw depth is (if you completely blank on ba).

none of that has anything to do with anything, other than i agree he should definitely be in the mix.

his pt is a little concerning, but for me guys build up credit, hit certain levels of "proven" to me that dont just go away.

brenden is probably right in the middle of my "rankings" of that, along with scally. scally has a ton of credit with me from 4 solid years as a bund starter, and lesser- though not remotely as tragic performances with the nats- as other people think. i think hes ranged from passable to solidly good, which far surpasses any other non-dest or jedi fb in the pool. aaronson is a solid step/"level" below that (for me) at the club level, but hes a very rare (and possibly our most significant) "overachiever" with the nats, well surpassing his club form/level.

the bottom of that credit list is probably trusty- who i had/decreasingly have a lot of interest in. his sustained, notably high level of play in the cl had him at 3rd on my cb chart (behind only richards and mckenzie). but thats still a relatively small credit base, so its not going to take a long time to dry up. even getting into celtics team without cl isnt going to do a whole lot for me, but that would help stretching out my rope with him until he can make a move in jan.

which takes me to the top of the list currently with wes. hed have to get <300 minutes per season for at least two solid years before im going to listen to any noise about him being out of the national team (and its going to have be literally that bad to even have him on the bench for me). and his club play, inexplicably and more than anyone else, has no correlation to his play with the nats whatsoever.

...apropos of nothing, horvath was always the same to me- admittedly at a far, far lower level, and i do think hes settled into what he is at this point- which isnt nt relevant.