Post-match: USA v Netherlands Round of 16

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by OWN(yewu)ED, Dec 3, 2022.

  1. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    okay yeah fine i didnt check xavi simons stats....but ledezma has 15 appearances this season for PSV....

    there's no universe that any mid mls mids should be taken over him.
     
  2. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oh, so you made up false information to support your point, which was that the Netherlands called up a "bench-warmer on the same team as Ledezma"? Glad to see that you agree you can't compare Ledezma with Xavi Simons, even though they are on the same team. Now that that option has been eliminated, next up is "well he's got 15 appearances for PSV this season". Of course, you're counting 5 games for the PSV U-21s and a 2-minute appearance in a cup match to make the numbers look better (surprise surprise). He's got 261 minutes in the Eredivisie and Europa League across 9 games (so, as most people would agree, with the PSV first team) this season, which is great! But that accounts for over half his total career minutes at said level. Ever. EVER.
     
    Marko72, WrmBrnr, RossD and 2 others repped this.
  3. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    It sounds so perfect. Is he still trying to get a starting job? I don't follow him but it looks like late game sub in Eredvisie. He played dumb for our U20's. I wouldn't go near him til he shows some smarts and starts succeeding in Eredvisie.

    Booth is more of what we need. Game changer. More smarts, less speed and athleticism. Booth was actually in our u17's for defense so he knows how to play defense.
     
  4. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    it doesnt matter.....there's simply no way midfielders like acosta and roldan should on the national team ahead of him.

    i'm not misrepresenting anything.

    PSV is one of the best cubs in the world.....there simply arent any excuses to not call him up when you're calling up the chaffe from MLS.

    if you think Gregg has the squad right and this is the best he can do and you call up roldan and acosta ahead of players like booth and ledema there's simply no point to continue this conversation.....but youre probably one of those people who supports gregg in how he totally bungled using gio reyna too.
     
  5. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    When I heard about the physical altercation between Gio and the team captain, or "almost" physical, I thought of General Patton slapping a GI and losing his job. I'm surprised Berhalter would allow it. However, that's what happens in "collectives". Elitist cliques like MMA emerge and that is who I blame for the bad chemistry on this team, not Gio. Anybody who goes against the elitist clique in the collective is destroyed. They form a kind of "gang of three" if you will, pushing an agenda based in "cultural" revolution that captures the herd mentality and sweeps all rational thought before it.

    It's high time we get a new manager who can take a fresh approach to the squad and not be stuck in cultural collectivism.
     
  6. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i think thats likely going a bit far...musah and mckennie especially strike me as super chill and good guys.....doubt they would be riding around on their high horses. tyler is super cool to although i could possibly be see him get a bit too big for his britches idk....

    but i would just say new fresh eyes from a manager are simply necessary.....

    and there shouldnt be a locked in set lineup for every single game and no viable plan b....thats just a ridiculous way to approach national team soccer. portugal benched ronaldo. gregg could never. way too rigid and unable to think spontaneously.

    all the spots in a tourney need to be earned as you go...flexible and adaptable....this idea that gregg knew before the tourney that gio wouldnt play is ludicrous even if he knew who his preferred 11 was.
     
    Excellency repped this.
  7. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Factual information does matter, and when you use fake "facts" to support your argument (and then discard that "facts" were needed in the first place once they've been show to be, well, not actually facts) then, you're right, there's no point in arguing.

    I also think you're right that you're not misrepresenting anything--because making up "facts" isn't misrepresentation, but rather disinformation.

    As regards Ledezma and what warrants getting called into the 2022 USMNT World Cup squad, it doesn't matter where PSV ranks in terms of "best clubs in the world". He's barely played any role for them in the past and is just starting to get some more consistent, but still spot, minutes. This is great news and gives me hope that he might actually pan out in the future. But what he might end up being and where he is today aren't the same thing. Similar to Weston McKennie in 2017.

    On the last note, thinking that Ledezma didn't belong on the 2022 WC roster does not mean that I think Berhalter nailed the squad. Pepi should have been there for sure, and Arriola over Roldan for my money. I think Tillman was on a roll and made a good case for his inclusion (it seems obvious, as well, that Berhalter liked him, given his callups this year)--and I suspect he was one of the last to be cut from the final roster. The Pepi exclusion is the only one that defies reason.
     
  8. NietzscheIsDead

    NietzscheIsDead Member+

    NO WAR
    United States
    May 31, 2019
    NO WAR
    I’m with you on all of those choices. I often wonder if Seattle players are always given an extra bump because of the eyeball factor.

    I’d have taken Pepi over Morris and Arriola over Roldan.
     
  9. Calling BS

    Calling BS Member+

    Orlando City
    United States
    Jan 25, 2020
    That’s an interesting world you’ve constructed. I find it very impressive that the “gang of three” was able to bully the entire team and coaching staff to go along with it.

    I’m done posting on the QANON page.
     
    Marko72, WrmBrnr, RossD and 1 other person repped this.
  10. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    there's a long long long list of high performing USMNTers that didnt play or only played sparingly for their euro clubs....

    when the club is as prestigious as PSV....the player almost always still has been called up and for good reason.

    donovan didnt play for leverkusen and barely did for bayern
    bradely didnt play for aston villa
    kirovski didnt play for dortmund
    onyewu had trouble playing for milan and malaga
    carter vikers didnt play for tottenham
    turner isnt playing for arsenal
    arriola didnt play for swnsea
    feilhaber couldnt get off the bench in europe
    lletget never played for his euro team
    tim weah has had trouble getting consistent minutes


    i could go on and on and on


    for whatever strange reason you seem to be drinking gregg's mls koolaid....and his strange assessment of the player pool.

    the top 20 players in the pool are all in europe.period. its not even debatable.

    the rest of the players after that are probably in europe too but gregg never vetted them...he pre-decided there would be MLs in his team the same way he predecided gio wouldnt play in the wc.

    january camp shouldnt even exist anymore...and that odd october mls camp shouldnt have happened either.
     
    dspence2311 repped this.
  11. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    "all the spots in a tourney need to be earned as you go...flexible and adaptable....this idea that gregg knew before the tourney that gio wouldnt play is ludicrous even if he knew who his preferred 11 was"

    That's what I was thinking, too. There's an organic growth that takes place - usually at the margins - with the best managed WC teams. At some point 3G replied to a question saying "it's a matter of figuring out how and when we can use him (Reyna)".

    Apparently he quickly figured it all out at HT down 0-2 in the R16 game v. Netherlands when he subbed Reyna in at the half. That was some "quick thinking";)
     
    adam tash repped this.
  12. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    I didn't construct it; Berhalter did. There's quotes all over the place from Berhalter about culture but precioius little about the tactics he used v. Netherlands which were disastrous. Like VanGall said, Berhalter never adapted. Netherlands went on to face Argentina in the quarterfinals and Argentina came out in a mirror formation (352 type) and Netherlands was neutrzlized and went down 0-2. VanGall adapted, taking out the left back Blind (Ake the lcb is also a lfb at ManCity), put 2 cf's in and caught Argentina 2-2 at full time.

    We can't discuss any of this tactical deficiency in the 2022 cycle because when we do we get accused of being QANON and Berhalter has constructed a little warm blanket to pull over our eyes with jargon about the colllective group and vibes and good guys and MMA. If you want to wallow in that BS, fine, but don't blame me for calling it out.
     
    eric_appleby, Zinkoff and adam tash repped this.
  13. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The Burn were good at making players have career games at times. None more so than Mathis scoring FIVE! goals on them.

     
    eagercolin repped this.
  14. eagercolin

    eagercolin Member

    Metro
    United States
    Aug 25, 2017
    Buffalo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I missed this game because I was busy meeting and falling in love with my future wife that night. Worth it, I guess.
     
  15. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Totally worth missing if you're/were a Burn fan. Can't remember being more mad at a player. A Salvadoran Burn fan (Zarco Rodriguez brought many out) tried to throw a metal cup at Mathis after the game and nearly took out LA's Salvadoran legend Mauricio Cienfuegos. And I thought I was mad.
     
    NietzscheIsDead repped this.
  16. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    I had done a re-watch of the 2nd half of Netherlands game, then decided to do a 2nd rewatch of first half. Being critical of MMA in general, I kept my MMA CAM on and was surprised how incredibly ineffective they were. It was worse than what I had remembered. They were totally neutralized. They did nothing. If I had to analyze it further, I think it would come down to a lack of balance. I could see Adams doing a lot on an individual basis but it kind of got cut off, neutralized, if you will, due to lack of teamwork.
     
    adam tash and Zinkoff repped this.
  17. eric_appleby

    eric_appleby Member+

    Jun 11, 1999
    Down East
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Anyone else get the feeling the Dutch could have scored on us anytime they put their mind to it?
     
  18. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    from wiki

    In Aesop's fable a crow has found a piece of cheese and retired to a branch to eat it. A fox, wanting the cheese for himself, flatters the crow, calling the crow beautiful and wondering whether its voice is as sweet to match. When it lets out a caw, the cheese falls and is devoured by the fox.
     
  19. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    It's almost like they're the #6 ranked team in the World, and we're not.
    They took eventual World Champions Argentina to penalties.

    So yes, there's a lot we need to work on if we're going to compete consistently at that level.
     
    tomásbernal and NietzscheIsDead repped this.
  20. Loius van Gaal used the match against the USA as a prep match for Argentina in testing which players could execute the defensive tactics he had no time before the WC start to really make the players used to it. The USA match was what he had in store for Argentina.
    I read someone claiming the Orange Squad bunkered against the USA out of fear, but that's an observation beside the real reason, the one I mentioned.
    Part of it was to try to "arrange" opponent players into positions that would facilitate a fast execution of a strike. It wasnot a coincidence the first two goals were almost identical.
    It worked against the USA, but not so good against Argentina, so we had to switch to plan B.
     
    Pegasus and NietzscheIsDead repped this.
  21. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It was a surprise for the US but Argentina's coaches got to see it it and perhaps worked out a counter strategy for if the Dutch used it again?
     
    dna77054 and Ball Chucking Hack repped this.
  22. They cleverly nullifyed it by mirroring it. It wasnot only in the USA match LvG used it. He used all the group stage matches too to try drilling this defensive set up into the players. I before the Worldcup started already told everybody in here how defensively we would play, given the comments pre tournement by LvG and prepare for a boring set of matches by us. LvG simply assumed we would qualify for the KO stage and given the USA became our opponent, also for the last 16. Would for instance England been our opponent, he still would use the same tactics, but in that case to survive this round instead of a practice round. Argentina had 4 matches to analyse the Orange Squad's tactic in case and find a solution for it.
     
    Excellency repped this.
  23. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    I suggested before the Wales match that we consider mirroring Wales' 532. It kind of sank under the weight of Berhalter's inflexibility. My sense historically is that top 8/12 teams have tactical flexibility and the rest tend to shy away from it. American soccer culture isn't there yet.

    p.s. question: why didn't Klaasen play v. Argentina? Was he carrying a knock?
     
  24. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I would have agreed more with this if the Dutch posted hadn't told us Holland used one defensive formation in the whole tournament. GB actually did change up formations at times so I'm not sure about it now. Counter argument is Argentina coach did change it up to knock out Holland.
     
  25. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    No. After Argentina went ahead 2-0 with the 352, Holland adjusted after the half taking Blind off and going 4 man back line.
     

Share This Page