Post-match: USA v Netherlands Round of 16

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by OWN(yewu)ED, Dec 3, 2022.

  1. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    I guess so, but it is kind of chicken and egg and it doesn't indicate whether or not it (using the system) is a good choice or not.

    look at a team like France. You could say the same about them. Does that make their system unreliable? Should they change the way they play to be more reliable? Obviously that is not apples to apples....Adams is not Mbappe and our team is not France but you could say that about any team (imo) that has a player that is much noticeably important to the team... Factors that mitigate the absence of a top player are primarily the quality of the rest of the team. (again, imo)
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  2. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Newcastle United FC
    For some perspective, consider that NONE of the major powers (Brazil, Argentina, France, Germany, Italy, England, Spain, Netherlands) have been beaten by a non-UEFA team in the R16 aside from S.Korea controversially beating Italy & Spain in 2002 as hosts.

    Every time a non-UEFA team has won in the R16, it's been by beating a non-power:

    USA over Mexico, and Senegal over Sweden in 2002.
    Uruguay over S.Korea, Paraguay over Japan, and Ghana over USA in 2010
    Colombia over Uruguay and Costa Rica over Greece in 2014
    Uruguay over Portugal in 2018.

    The 2022 USMNT is in good company.....beating a team like the Netherlands in the R16 is very hard and generally doesn't happen.
  3. adam tash

    adam tash BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i dont have a crusade against MLS!!! I do have an issue with the USMNT manager doing such a deep deep dive through the MLS bin this cycle and coming up totally empty....and then people assuming that there was simply nothing after MMA and this is all we had.

    players like Booth, Ledezma, Mihailovic, Sonora, Holmes, Cappis, Reyna can all play in the much time did any of them get??? he barely even played gio reyna!! Acosta got more minutes than gio reyna in qatar! wtf

    A US midfielder was just bought by a Serie A team...and he wasn't in Qatar, either.

    Look how long it took him to even give Luca de La Torre a chance....(I dont know what he was thinking with that celta move but it really hurt him and the team in qatar)

    I'm not crusading against MLS! i'm not against anyone with any ties to MLS being in the USMNT...where have I said that?!?!?

    But the MLSers that Gregg settled on and favored after trying many many MLSers this cycle....were not up to it...and it was obvious the whole time! just facts, man.

    Was pablo mastroeni good enough? yes. eddie pope? yes. besler? yes. landon? yes.

    these MLSers that greggg chose? NO!

    and this is at a time when there are simply more players at higher levels of play than at any other time in US history...but yeah there is a bit of a dropoff from the very top of the pool to the rest. But I totally disagree that it had to be as steep as gregg made it....largely due to his overinfatuation with MLS.

    I dont think lewandowski scores much for the USMNT in qatar....I dont understand why everyone keeps blabbering about the US lacking a striker...they lack the final ball. they lack playmking and ideas in the final third. a great striker wont change that.

    the coach chose 3 dmids basically.. he is a 0-0 coach (at best)...but the US had other options in midfield.....there was a chance that this team acutally had depth this cycle and I cannot beleive that people that supposedly follow this team closely cant recognize that.
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  4. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    United States
    May 12, 2019
    One, I just wanted to note I like eggball and love basketball; he just really loves sports and I think he won't ever be big enough to be particularly good at either.

    Now, onto your question... No and yes? He's in San Diego; there's a pretty good amount of people who play soccer there. It's not really football country; it's just sports country. Like every sport.

    If soccer was the dominant sport ... sure. But I don't think it ever becomes the #1 sport to the level it is in most countries. Hell, it may never compete with football or basketball, etc., but even if it did ... the attention would still be fragmented.

    In this case ... his family wasn't into it. His sporty friends weren't, and so it's just unlikely. There's just a really good chance we never tap much more than 10-20% of the US pop, but that would still be enough if they were really into it.
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  5. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Agree. That's why it is frustrating to me that we made so many basic mistakes. I don't know if we win if we hit a shot or two and close up the defensive errors. But with a well-played game, we could have taken them.
  6. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Leicester City FC
    That’s not all I said though - and it is already an existing precedent.
  7. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Pretty much. For a team that scored all of 3 goals in 4 games, the least productive our attack has been since the '06 World Cup, people really do seem to like to ---- on Wright for a "fluke goal" and nothing else. He put himself in position to score another, and mistouched it, see the clips of his Turkey play and that doesn't happen as often, and he scored a ridiculous goal, but he still scored it. I don't think he's the answer, I think Pepi is, or using a false 9 (not Ferreira), but he scored the goal and looked much better at the World Cup then he did in June. Do I think Pepi would have done better/fit better? 100% but I would have taken Pepi instead of Ferreira before over Wright and Wright was decent during the Cup, Sargent was solid, and Ferreira was utterl garbage (and I find it amusing that Wright takes the stick when Ferreira was beyond a minus on the field, he literally helped gift them a goal w/one of his rare moments of minute influence).

    Come '23, it should
    #1: Sargent
    #2: Pepi
    Tier break
    #3 Wright
    #4 Pefok (and he goes to #3 if he gets back on track.

    Ferreira needs to move abroad and be challenged by a better environment, he'll get a lot better, he's still young, but like a lot of stupid end of roster choices, Ferreira had no business in Qatar, much like Moore, Morris, Roldan and LDLT if he wasn't going to play etc (honestly if LDLT wasn't going to play the 8, Roldan shouldve played there, not Acosta, whose miserable at it).
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  8. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That is a great clarification and is certainly supported by the behavior of our last 2 managers.
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  9. dspence2311

    dspence2311 Member+

    Oct 14, 2007
    I essentially agree with this analysis
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  10. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Doubly dishonest argument - "Morris has never had a "gol" or assist in wcq'ing in his life. He's done nothing!".

    Well, Morris assisted on the game-tying goal to keep us alive in wcq'ing last cycle at Honduras. So that's objectively false.

    And then it's intellectually dishonest to ignore he hasn't played much (about 230 minutes) in the final rd of qualifying because of the timing of his injuries. And when he has, most of those minutes were just coming off a 2nd blown acl. As if that reflects on the player post 1 ACL, 0, or even 2 in totality as he gets further away from it.

    What's ironic is, by this criteria, the comparative Gods, according to those w/ this same lowest common denominator ideology - have actually done nothing. Sargent's never had a goal or assist in wcq'ing & now didn't in the WC (or v. anyone w/ a pulse) - across 270+ total minutes combined. Pefok didn't in 140. And they were both healthy.

    But some never let facts get in the way of a good story/their narrative/biases/insecurities.
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  11. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not surprised.
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  12. Calling BS

    Calling BS Member+

    Orlando City
    United States
    Jan 25, 2020
    The ACM also failed when we used Mihilovic and Pulisic as ACM back in the early days of GG. The Morocco game could easily be fools gold (they got off the plane and played us). Never less we have no evidence it’s a good fit with this team and certainly don’t have any evidence it’s better than MMA. Like I said previously, it’s all speculation and dreams misstated as facts.
  13. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The person I’ve always thought about is someone like Nate Robinson. He’s 5’9, but he’s a good enough athlete that he got a scholarship to play cornerback at a Power 5 program (and even started as a freshman for half the season). Then he decides to focus on basketball and sticks around the NBA for a decade winning 3 slam dunk competitions. That’s the sort of athlete I would have loved to see play soccer from a young age.

    We don’t need the Lebron’s to play soccer, we need the guys who are ridiculous athletes but don’t really fit the size requirements for the NBA or NFL (but are typically good enough athletes that they can be very good college players).
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  14. Calling BS

    Calling BS Member+

    Orlando City
    United States
    Jan 25, 2020
    Your not a serious person. I’d be an idiot to try and engage in a discussion with you.
  15. Calling BS

    Calling BS Member+

    Orlando City
    United States
    Jan 25, 2020
    Link? Or is this just a BS narrative you constructed out of thin air?
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  16. theboogeyman

    theboogeyman Member+

    Jun 21, 2010
    That’s an excellent statistic, and it kind of supports how I feel about our progress and performance this cycle.

    There’s a lot of talk about getting where we want to be, but not a lot about defining what that means.

    some are saying that we’ve made the round of 16 before, and that this run was nothing special. While we didn’t make progress in some ways, I look at how we made it through the group without a loss, and played a pretty damn strong UEFA country evenly as meaningful progress. This had a VERY different feel from getting bounced by Ghana, and being really lucky to keep it close against Belgium.

    to what I was saying though, in terms of “getting where we want to be”, I don’t think it’s realistic to set winning the World Cup as the only standard.

    I look at things like that stat, and think about making that type of progress. For example, going out in the quarters after beating a team like Ghana would not be that meaningful to me. Knocking a Netherlands or Argentina or Germany out in the ro16 or quarters is what would really show we are for real. I think we might be capable of that in 2026 if our squad improves in the necessary areas and we catch some breaks.
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  17. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't share the same confidence about this position. It's a later-developing one, which is both good and bad. Then we largely have to rely on the improvement of our existing corps, which I'm not nearly as high on as you.

    - Richards is the only one who's proven & healthy enough to feel confident in.
    - Miles' achilles injury is a big blow. Those have poor prognoses. He'd have been the other 1.
    - CCV has height and quickness issues. And he's nothing special as a ballplayer or d instinct wise.
    - McKenzie has awareness and poise questions
    - Trusty I thought was a diamond in the rough, but a low-carat one. Lead foot, inconsistent.

    1 probable and 4 maybes among your youngish vets is a low #.

    Then there's depth among the prospects, but no virtual can't miss or advanced one to think we can bank on any already by '26. The ones I'm probably highest on are Che and Henry, but they've hit snags.

    I think this could wind up a real real problem spot. Might have to get creative and play 3 at the back with very unorthodox like Scally & a more defensive LB in the wide spots if enough guys realistically don't pan out.
  18. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    That's the Fed's fault. They aren't limited to MLS managers.

    I mean, sure, get MLS teams into S.A. tournaments. I don't know when that could happen, w/ the quasi-merger w/ MFL coming. Do it for the American managers.
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  19. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For those interested in stats.

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  20. Rezelby

    Rezelby Member

    Aug 1, 2010
    Such a great post. Repped.

    The idea that we “HAD” to resort to playing MMA so much and ultimately to the ground is just strictly Berhalter apologists. Midfield is actually where we have a decent amount of depth, we don’t have to play 3 DMIDs.

    LB is clearly the worrying depth area, we really should have used the time in qualifying to see if we could get a proper backup.

    His recruiting was decent but his inability to create a 25 man roster and rotate it properly is the reason he should be sacked
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  21. butters59

    butters59 Member+

    Feb 22, 2013
    2002 team was better because young talent doesn't worth much. Musah and Dest might be extremely talented but they are too young to get everything out of their talent. I'll take Claudio and Sanneh who were on top of their forms. Player by player 2002 is much better, not even close.
    Keeper: 2002 or equal.
    RB: 2002 or equal
    CBs: 2002 (Pope) - 2022
    LB: 2022
    DM: 2022
    CMs: 2002-2002 (JOB-Reyna)
    And then Pulisic would be the only one 2002 who would be starting in the attack.
    2002 also had much stronger bench: Mathis, Wolff, Beasley, Stuart, Lewis.

    2022 kids might become better players, but they aren't there yet, and dogmatic coach doesn't help.
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  22. eagercolin

    eagercolin Member

    United States
    Aug 25, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I like the idea of more versatility in our midfield, but then I look at this list of players and automatically starting MMA looks better and better. Most of these are guys I'd like to see get some chances over the next year, not guys who should have been part of qualifying or integrated just before the WC. There was probably room for Djordie on this roster, but Duane Holmes isn't the answer to any question I'm asking.
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  23. porkrind

    porkrind Member+

    United States
    Sep 27, 2001
    San Jose Earthquakes
    I will not abide this Daryl Dike erasure.

    Am I the only one who rates Dike? (assuming he's fit, of course)
  24. y-lee-coyote

    y-lee-coyote Member+

    Dec 4, 2012
    Good game USA. I think GB did fine. Maybe a couple of the roster spots bit us, but the guys that did not play really weren't taking a spot from anybody who would have a very high likelihood of changing the outcome. The arguments for this or that left off player is really an argument Gregg could have caught lightning in a bottle if he had only brought player xxx or subbed player Y.

    I am not a Gregg fan and think it is better to have a fresh coach each cycle, but I won't hate it if he is coach. You have to play good defense in top level soccer, and Gregg has shown the ability to teach that and get the group to buy into it. I don't get the vitriol.

    We need more than just Puli to create chances, maybe Gio or Aaronson could have helped some in that department if they were a bit more seasoned or more fit. Maybe a guy like Daryl Dike and/or Miles Robinson playing, and in form, could have made a difference. The thing I feel really good about is that we truly have shown we can go toe to toe with some of the top teams in the world, and we look to be better in four years than we are now.

    It is not likely all of the nine or so really good pieces will be fit and in form or even playing soccer in 26, but a core is there and we are starting from a pretty high baseline as we get ready for the next cup. I feel better about the state of US soccer than I have since before I saw Rico Clark starting a WC game. The future is bright onward and upwards.
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  25. Calling BS

    Calling BS Member+

    Orlando City
    United States
    Jan 25, 2020
    And the MMA is really just getting started. They’ve been playing together...what? A year? Look at some of the Nats teams...they’ve been playing together for cycles.
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