Post-match: USA v Netherlands Round of 16

I'm loathe to chime in on any of this MLS vs Europe discussion, because I think the 'MLS is so bad we should be be plucking any available player from random third tier European clubs to avoid having to select any MLS players for our roster' side of this argument is a pretty fringe opinion that's not really convincing anyone.

But I will say, back in 2002 we had plenty of MLS starters in part because American talent was generally undervalued in Europe, in part because MLS wasn't all that eager to facilitate transfers abroad, and in part because many American players didn't feel particularly welcome or settled in Europe even when they had opportunities to play there.

I don't really think any of that is true today. At this point, if we're starting an MLS player, it's because it's a rare position of weakness for us -- a position where we just don't have many options playing at a high level in Europe right now. That was GK, CF, and at least one CB spot for most of this cycle, and even there we managed to fill two of those three positions with a European player for this World Cup (at least until Sargent got injured). There might also be a situation where a promising young talent in MLS is ready to start for the national team even in a position where we have high level European options, but that will most likely be a pretty brief window because at this point a player like that will probably find himself in Europe at the next available opportunity. In that respect, you can count me among the people who hope and expect to see even fewer MLS players than we have now on our next World Cup roster.

But that also means it will be all too easy (and the height of lazy analysis) to say that our MLS players look a cut below the European players they share the field with, and therefore we should avoid using them. At this point, of course the 29 year old CB who's played in MLS his whole career will generally look a cut below the rest of our lineup when playing against top teams -- especially when we can field a half dozen guys who have played in the Champions League knockout stages at this point, and a few more who will probably join them soon. But he's not competing with those players right now. He's competing with the young CB at Genk who has serious potential, but makes at least one big mistake in every USMNT game he plays right now. Or the guy on the bottom half Ligue 1 team (with a Transfermarkt value around NYCFC's) who's looked pretty poor in every national team game he's played. Or the guy at Celtic who looks completely overmatched at the Champions League level, and roughly at the same level as Zimmerman at the national team level. Or the guy who hasn't really played a minute against any club higher than a 3rd division side in 7 months now. Zimmerman is starting there because over a large enough sample size, he's looked better than the alternatives at that spot.

 

Jordan Morris was terrible in qualifying. He had potential but it's long gone. He showed nothing all cycle.

He's never had a good touch and now his speed is meh as well.

 

Oh, Landon and Clint would still be stars on this squad. But if Landon and Clint were playing today, they'd both have had higher-level club careers than they did, particularly Landon. Things are different for Americans today.

 

If we get a new coach I expect Brooks to be back in the mix, and Robinson and Richards to be the default CB pairing. Brooks will be younger than Ream is now in 2026. I expect that he and Richards both will find PT with clubs between now and then.

 

I applaud Jordan for overcoming his injury set-backs and fighting back into contention. I just don't see the same player now though. The attributes that had made him dangerous seem to be completely gone now, unfortunately. I'd much rather give younger guys their shot to impress now.

 

Neither here nor there as relates to the league he plays in. Should Clint Dempsey have been with the USMNT in 2006? He was older than Jesus is currently at the time.

 

Regarding LVG's quote on twitter:

I think it is more a case of "live by the sword die by the sword".

the US has some obvious weaknesses. Probably two of the most glaring are center forward and lack of a central playmaker. Our most obvious strengths are in midfield and our wing play.

Berhalter has compensated for our lack of creativity and our lack of a consistent scoring threat (some might say any scoring threat) by playing directly.....pushing our wings and outside backs forward at every chance. That's how we played in qualifying and it is what got us through our group. We took chances going forward hoping that, with the help of Adams, Dest and Robinson would be able to cover incredible acreage.

We pushed forward and dictated play until they got their first chance and finished. After that, it became much more difficult because Nederland was able to sit back and counter. When you have the quality that they have, that is a pretty good place to be....and they were clinical. We were not. If we had scored first things may have been different or perhaps not.

Imo, the greatest tactical error Berhalter made wasn't during the game. Most wouldn't call it tactical, but bringing 3 forwards hurt. The position was already a huge question mark....quality and form were issues. By the time it was apparent that Sargent was our best of the three, (mostly by default), he was injured...just in time for Nederlands. So he had a choice between Wright, who had done absolutely nothing in two chances, Ferreira who had not played a minute and Reyna. Even though I had doubts about Ferreira, I was fine with the choice and when it was obvious that he wasn't effective that change was made to Reyna. If Berhalter had Vazquez or Pefok that is at least one more option.

As others have said, our guys ran themselves into the ground and gave it everything they had. I refuse to blame any of them and, while I believe that Berhalter did make errors, when you compare the number of opportunities that each team had and the relative quality of the two teams (even if you call them even), it is hard for me to say this game was a case of Berhalter being outcoached. We got beat by a very good team. We have a good team with an extremely exciting future ahead of us and I am proud of the way they played, the way they supported each other and their general conduct. They represented the US in a way that can make all of us proud. (at least in my opinion)

 

We've already started using them situationally. The last one before WCQ was basically an Olympic prep camp and I think the one before was also youth focused.

It's an important data point, especially as context for statistics and scouting. But a huge portion of the fanbase takes it as gospel.

If you actually watch our players, I think people would be surprised at how similar the national team player and the US player are!

For a hyped USMNT fan, Pulisic scored in a Champions League Semi! True! But if you ask a Chelsea fan (or watch him), he's also not a great finisher, doesn't provide strong final balls, overdribbles. Does that sound familiar? He's had a great World Cup and Chelsea fans are asking where this comes from.

You can do the same across the board. Weston is on Juventus, but he's also the dude that Juventus plays in a very specific way or he becomes a liability. Adams was benched at Leipzig because they thought his passing insufficient once they moved away from straight RB ball. He moved to a team that is dogmatically RB and he's playing great.

Dest is wildly offensively talented, but he's not productive enough to deal with defensive errors, and he was amazing for us and then switched off in the knockout. That's why he rides the pine. It's also why Barca bought him.

I've gone far afield here, but I think our players are very talented, but they aren't elite players, they have weaknesses, they can make mistakes. And it's ridiculous that the expectations put on Pulisic by American fans seem to be lower than those same fans would put on Kai Havertz (who starts over him) or Hakim Ziyech (similar situation), etc.

Ajax, PSV and a few others are great. The rest pay less than many MLS teams. I do think leagues like the Netherlands and to a lesser extent, Belgium, do bring something to our players in that while those players aren't better, they are generally more skilled and tactically astute compared to generic American MLS player.

I don't think this means much in player evaluation, but I think it provides a standard on ball movement, teamwork and tactical knowledge that your teammates don't have in the US.

I think that is partly why our players are so good at individual skills and one on one play -- because even if the coaching is good, Pulisic's teammates pushed him to be an individual player. Whereas maybe some of our guys are better at one touch passing and being in the right place if ALL their teammates do it.

But that is more gaps in style we have. Ricardo Pepi is scoring in the Eredivisie like he did in MLS two years ago. Sam Vines walked over into a starting job and TOTW. I think more technical leagues can help their development, but it's clear MLS can compete with all but the UCL juggernauts in those.

 

was. past tense.

I think MLS defenders are so sensitive because they think criticism of their players is on a genetic,DNA level or something.

If Morris had gone to the Bundesliga when he had the chance, his career wouldve turned out much differently.

If Zimmerman was playing every week in top league, he'd likely be a much better player than he is now.

I dont think these MLSers couldnt be good in theory. Give Kellyn Acosta a move to a better league a few years ago and he mightve acutally done something in Qatar.

but, again, the fact that you are trying to use coulda woulda shoulda to support Morris just proves my point for me....Morris was on his way to being great. but he got sidetracked in MLS and never got there.

 

Yeah, I mean, it's likely our MLS players would be the same as our Eredivisie players or Portugese League players or Belgian players ... in general, top players move to top leagues because top leagues play better.

There will be a few times it's different. Someone not quite transferred out. Someone who came home for other reasons.

But also someone just in great form -- I actually think Walker was that in Qualifying. It's hard to compare some of the positions, but he was a great defender in qualifying and he's been very good in the World Cup, aside from the pen. I don't think he's there just because there's a weakness -- I'd put Walker's performance levels higher than our strikers, who were there because of weakness. He outplayed Brooks in Qualifying, outplayed Richards. The one guy he didn't also in MLS.

The point being, no one would bat an eye if we had a CB in Portugal in great form and started him. The same should be true for MLS.

I don't view starting Walker in MLS as worse than if we had started Jordan Pefok (Bundesliga) or Sargent (Championship) or de la Torre (La Liga). I think if you took the labels off, people would have a different view of Walker's performance.

(And I think he outplayed CCV, who got away with a few misses.)

People just evaluate too much on club.

 

Asking any club fan, or coach even, about their players is silly as relates to national team performance. See Ziyech, Havertz and Pulisic as examples.

 

this guy has zero wcq qualifiying gols and assists IN HIS LIFE....and I am underrating him based on league??? lol

he has done nothing. and he will never do anything. this is his peak.

 

OR having actually watched what that MMA midfield did to England. I’m not going to bring up the other teams they’ve dominated because they’ll get dismissed as not top competition. Building another option/adding another wrinkle is a good idea. The MMA is a proven entity. Until we see a mid with an ACM work.... it’s all speculation and dreams.

 

give EPB a run of games instead of Long before you go drawing all these conclusions about him.

fact is, GGG just settled on Zimmerman and Long didnt really consider much else until the last second when he realized how idiotic that had been. Mckenzie had a breakout sesason this year in europe...it finally clicked. saying mckenize makes a major mistake every game is just wrong. he's barely played. and yet zimmerman is the one who made a major mistake that cost the team in qatar.

there were so many CB options. Miazga played better in MLS than Zimmerman did. he's better than Walker too.

but walker is more marketable. hes got all the sponsors and has the pretty face and I honestly think that has something to do with him being chosen to play in the WC.

pretending like there was a fair and open competition where everyone got a chance to porve themselves and wlaker just came out on top is disingenuous at best.

 

There is no objective data that supports those conclusions. Zimmerman was fine is a gross oversimplification given that everyone was "fine".

You can also say that Zimmerman and Robinson were better in WCQ than Ream, right.

 

It's not. Club performance and national team performance can differ, but US fans are really, really absurdly biased. Getting someone who cares more about performance than the hype machine -- and no country has a hype machine like the US prospect hype machine -- is absolutely valuable.

An easy tell is that USMNT fans will simply cite club or say someone is world class while something you might want to believe will actually talk pluses and minuses, etc. Yes, there are club fans who will just say so and so is shit but plenty will get into an actual evaluation. USMNT fans are hype machines.

There was literally a respected poster on who called Haji Wright's finishing in the Turkish league "world class." I don't think this person is an idiot, but the finishes in question were completely unpressured from 10 yards in the box, no one between him and the goal. They were good finishes, but no, they aren't indicative of world class skill. Every freaking striker in the top 40 leagues in the world can make those shots. Look up highlights of "Danger Adjacent" Paul Arriola and you'll see FAR tougher and better finishes.

But we still see, even after Haji crapped the bed here, comments that he's scoring better than Enner Valencia in Turkey. So what? I've seen Valencia and I've seen Wright -- Valencia is a far better player. It's a nice data point for Haji but the hype machine is still strangely out of control because there's just this belief that someone doing well in Turkey must be better. But if you watch Haji in Turkey ... I mean, you see a lot of what you see with the National Team.

 

We have run a midfield with an ACM, and it has worked at times (Morocco) and not so much at all (El Salvador x2, Netherlands, Uruguay).

I don't think it is a crazy or bad idea. I simply think the idea that it will guarantee a huge increase in offense (and people were saying 20 minutes of Reyna "definitely" would have gotten a goal) with absolutely no defensive consequences or that it is some clear no brainer are silly.

These people also guaranteed we would not get out of the group with MMA, were wrong, and are somehow now moving the goalposts.

Chances are, like most things, it depends on opponents, tactical plan and execution, but that doesn't allow you to call a coach an idiot.

 

that playing style is unsustainable. you can go all out and get a 0-0 with it...but then deal with rubber legs later on like the US had vs the Dutch.

 

I like to see the World Cup in a broad and global context. As I see it, on one level, our players are ambassadors for our country. Their attitude and behavior is a reflection of the country. I was absolutely proud of the way our guys supported one another and represented themselves in media interviews. Beyond that, we showed ourselves as a team willing to work hard and play cleanly. The team deserves credit for how they showed up and represented us in Qatar - well done USMNT.

I keep pounding the table with this "I'm an old guy" trope which must sound boring and tired to some, but the fact that we are regular participants in the round of 16 is a major achievement from where we were 30 years ago. You just have to see the big picture of where we've been and where we are going.

 

Chelsea have the most fickle fans in the entire world. The consensus around any player is based on whether they scored recently. For them Azpi is washed. Looks pretty good for Spain. Giroud…same. The list is very long. If you asked Leipzig fans about Tyler you’d get the absolute wrong answer. Coaches too.

It’s art at that level not science. Some folks think MLS paint shouldn’t be used. That’s absurd.

 

Trouble is that there's a fair amount of old guys around here and we can't agree on the big picture. We've had the same stupid arguments for 30 years regarding development, leagues, potential, and performances.

 

it IS absurd to use MLS paint when there are alternatives in good euro leagues.

 

I'm not talking about random twitter reactions. The idea that USMNT fan mob are systematically more accurate about their players than the literal professional coaches is kind of absurd.

No coach is perfect, but most USMNT fans are terrible talent evaluators. Just awful.

 

And you can see the Dutch player on the bottom of the video has his hands on his head in a “oh crap!” because he likely thought that was gonna be a US goal.