USA - Switzerland Post Match Thread

This is what I'm afraid of. My real fear is that we have a good coach who is not doing is homework, and most of what he's doing he's only doing during school hours.

 

Just no…

watching him play in person with the nats I saw the good and bad. He definitely isn’t an auto-include

 

That's an opinion.

I saw Reyna score and assist in the 2021 NL final against Mexico in person.

I saw Reyna do that full field slalom through 8 Mexican players and set up Pefok with an open goal in the Azteca in person.

I saw Reyna score the 2-0 in the 2024 NL final against Mexico in person.

But, yea, sure let's play someone else. Who do you suggest? What have they done for the usmnt?

 

In fairness, and I do think it's worth mentioning (while conceding that it's been a well and truly horrible run regardless of whose played since fall '23), the players yesterday weren't the direct replacements for anything.

If you look through that lineup, you know, as I and others joked before hand, that this was not the direct backups or the B team.

Where is Harriel in the FB depth chart of any sane person, even before last night? He's not top 6. Just going off Eleven Bravo's depth chart: dude is not even mentioned, anywhere, among 20 FB's. Arf is like the 7th guy mentioned.

So just going down:

GK: Turner: Potential Starting Keeper (God please, no)

Defenders: Harriel was not even on anyones depth charts, I think Arf was generally regarded as the 4th or 5th string LB, at best.

The Central Mids: Cardoso has been in the 23, generally regarded as an underwhelming direct backup to Adams, Sebastian Berhalter has been on a heater, but has not been ranked by anyone as a contender for any sport.

The attacking spear: I'll concede Paxten was a flagship U20, and is in a pack of players like Luna, who are the next up attackers after the '97's through the '03's, he's somewhere in the depth chart of interesting WF/Striker/A Mids, Brandon has been somewhere in that 3rd to 6th best WF in the pool area for four years. Quinn Sullivan is nowhere remotely close to being called up for the '27 Gold Cup, let alone the '25, where would he rank in my WF list? Like Harriel, he wouldn't be in it. Am I interested in him? Yes, he's climbed up the charts the past year for sure, but he's nowhere close to the vets and any typical WF groupings.

The striker, I just have to laugh, this guy isn't in my top 5 or 6, so why on earth is he here? Probably because after Balo and Pepi, it's a mess.


But here's what it really comes down to. If I asked you if these players would be in your top 30, not top 23, but top 30 options for the WC next summer, how many in that lineup would make your 30? I think anyone honest would say: zero of the starting 11, and in terms of the rest, McKenzie, Cardoso (who is rapidly departing peoples top 30's), Turner, and Brendan Aaronson, and after that, maybe Zim. How many people would have more than 2-3 of those guys in their 23? I'd probably guess very freaking few.

That's what makes this alarming. I like looking at guys, testing guys, but lets be straight: Quinn Sullivan is not being called up to any sane person's WC '23, nor is Arf, nor is Harriel, nor is Berhalter, probably not Zim, definitely not White, Paxten and Brendan currently do not make that team for most people.

So wtf was that? We started a striker nobody on the planet had in their top 5 options like 3 weeks ago, we started a WF nobody had in their top 50 yesterday, we started a CM nobody considered in the top 200 just four months ago, we started a FB that Eleven Bravo didn't list among 20 options he mentioned just a few months ago....the roster was utterly asinine from the jump. As I said at the time, I didn't really care because w/so many out with injuries, out to rest, out at CWC, it was always going to be a mess, but you know, you could just call up the next best players and the hottest young prospects, instead of a giant pile of WTF options. You could have done that, Poch didn't. It's utterly confounding to me that he wasted one of like 7 games we have before the May WC camp against a legit, challenging opponent (in this case, from UEFAm, who are normally unavailable due to qualifications, nations league, and the Euro's) with a lineup chock full of players who have NO CHANCE WHATSOEVER of playing or being called up to that WC roster. No Quinn, No Brian, no Berhalter, no Harriel, and on and on and on.

That's what bothers me. We could play a U23 team with some glue vets, or we could play the next best available players, instead of any of that, he just rolled out a bunch of random crap, and prayed. Just high comedy and utterly bizarre.

 

Maybe at first, but at this stage I think that he would have some pointed questions in there.

 

This was the Tillman we saw in both of the friendlies. Not only that, but he had more of a leadership vibe about him.

Tillman and Richards both stepped up. Luna was good as well.

 

with a choice of quality or not.

my question- why do so many of us insist on not?

 

Reyna wasn't available for this camp as we didn't call up the Club World Cup guys. He may have been included if available. We'll never know.

If Gio Reyna is still that Reyna................then of course he has value to the national team.

Gio Reynas Movement Metrics Reveal Significant Physical Decline - RealGM Wiretap

Whether Gio Reyna is still Gio Reyna is up for debate. His metrics crashed this season relative to his peers. Now, we can all hope that he gets it back. What I do know is the arguments about Reyna right now are very similar to those we had about John O'Brien 20 years ago. One side saying "Look at what he's done for the national team in the past. He'll get it back!!!" And the other side saying "Yeah, but he's not that player right now."'

Gio Reyna had a really significant injury. I think we just brush those types of things off at times. Oh yeah, he'll be back just fine. It was just a broken leg. Jordan Morris has come back from ACL tears in both knees. But sometimes.........................guys don't recover. Paxton Pomykal is basically done. His body just can't handle the rigors of the sport.

Pochettino's comments about Reyna during the last camp are supported by the metrics.

And, by the way, potential new clubs for Reyna see those metrics. They're not fools, and all have analytical departments. Its silly season and we're hearing rumors about a bunch of guys. The Reyna rumors are really thin.

 

why are you still pounding this drum when he is missing due to the CWC?

It is kind of a moot point and we stunk up the joint not simply due to his absence (hint - our problems run very deep right now).

 

weah is the obvious omission to that list, and for a while puli would have been at the top of it.

its oversimplifying (and splits your list), but the reason for that is pretty obvious- the timeline of their moving into big/bigger clubs and roles is the same as the nats being completely barren. with chelsea, or lille, or whatever their quality was still to some degree speculative, they were very much still in their "potential" phases.

we, on the other hand, couldnt be choosy (though we certainly tried). we "wasted" a lot of time on more experienced, "proven" players before going with jedi, weah, etc. and there were two pretty clear gulfs that were apparent- they were clearly, inarguably "better" than lovitz, arriolla, etc but it still hard to reconcile gio (post berhalter 1), weah, or musah for the nats vs fairly bit part players with their clubs.

i think theres an interesting conversation to be had about the positive effect that national team experience (being primary players before "earning" it in a conventional sense) had on their club careers.

both gio and musah have stalled, or progressed in fits and starts, for various reasons but is it really as simple as wes and tyler are simply better, more talented players? obviously gio cant stay fit 3 months in a row but neither can tyler, you know? did adams just get over some potential hump/reach his "prime" before the fitness issues took hold?

my biggest issue with all managers over the last 10 years is putting those pieces together, to find some way to close that "plays better with their club/the nats" gap. cause thats the real issue, creating a better whole than all the varying individuals at any given time. a lot of those gaps have closed for individuals (puli, wes, tyler). we have guys in the middle (musah, luna, pepi, mckenzie), and the tillmans and cardosos (clearly the other side of the club/country divide). one thing that hasnt changed all that much is that we cant be choosy if development as a national team, "program" is a goal.

its hard to discuss without devolving into a mess, but a manager who can address that rather than filling in his preferred team sheet is the only way forward for us. all we can do is wait another year for the two big answers- how well poch does with his version of what weve been doing forever and will we find someone to manage the team we actually have?

 

$6M a year certainly requires one do their homework.

 

apparently it doesnt even require the schoolwork.

 

I mean, those guys ALSO don’t demonstrate their quality with any consistency either so what are we really left with? We can lose with players high on their own supply or lose with players that wouldn’t make the 1994 squad. What a depressing state of events

 

I am talking theoretical here.

here is where I am in the current situation (after watching the program for 50 years -yes do the math) …

ignore the USMNT team for now (go save some money and do other activities) - watch the group matches next year …

when we perform poorly just sigh when Poch gets let go .. then go approach Bielsa and ask him to evaluate the US program and what can constructively be done about it.

just got to be realistic and not get too low right now. It is too depressing …

btw - anybody else deeply worried that our keeper pool is just shit these days? What is that all about?

 

I don't really understand what people are talking about with regards to "Pochettino isn't doing his homework."

The MLS guys he called up are the same guys that this board identified as guys we think he should look at. For the most part, anyway. Freeman, McGlynn, Sullivan, Berhalter, and these guys WERE the domestic players of interest.

I look at some of the names people are suggesting that we should have called up instead, and I'm like......................really? You think we're doing better against Switzerland if we called up John Tolkin or Caleb Wiley instead of Max Arfsten? Caleb Wiley played for Watford in the Championship for a reason. John Tolkin will be in Bund 2 with Holstein Kiel for a reason.

This isn't rocket science. Our most talented players are Adams, McKennie, Antonee, Richards, Pulisic, Weah, Musah, Balogun, Pepi, Balogun, Tillman.............and the list goes on. If we're starting a game against an A European team like Switzerland without them, we'll be in deep trouble every time. That's our talent.

If you strip the 10 best players out of the starting XI for Mexico, I doubt they're doing well against an opponent like this either. Its why these are second tier nations. We don't have the depth of a France or Argentina. Antonee Robinson is one of the best LBs in the Premier League. We don't have a like-for-like replacement. I don't care who you suggest. They're not in the same ballpark as Antonee Robinson. Weston McKennie STARTS for Juventus, and this board decided he sucks. You've now seen the alternatives. Do you want to rethink that assessment??? Ya'll should be groveling at the feet of Pulisic begging for forgiveness after questioning his commitment. Without him, what are we? You think Diego Luna can do what Christian Pulisic can???

 

i mean, dont ask the question then. what are we left with!? better/higher quality. this question doesnt hold the nuance you think it does. what if they accidentally play well, or even just ok- is quin sullivans best gonna match tim weahs?

better is better, period. we dont have 15 layers of quality to sort though, we have like 3. weah is better than paredes is better than vassilev. very, very rarely we can have that discussion- a very occasionally available reyna, a not quite assertive enough to lead/drive an attack or luna.

we have to maximize quality, which means a fundamentally different type of manager than we hire. "oh, the best guys lose sometimes too, why not play the worst guys?"- why bother having a team then? cmon, man...

 

true story.

 

I think the better question is anybody not worried about our keeper pool?

It's the worst it's been in at least 35 years. Meola would be hands down* our number 1 right now, and he broke through in the late 80s.


*Of course, he'd be even better if he kept his hands up.

 

Your original claim was that moving around makes a player better. That's obvious nonsense. I'm not sure what MLS has to do with it, though. You realize that players move within MLS and to MLS, right?

A sensible person would recognize that the difference between (for example) Tyler Adams and his onetime Metro teammate Kyle Duncan isn't that Adams moved to Leipzig and therefore became the better player, but that he was able to move to Leipzig because he was already the better player.

 

I look forward to finding out whether Poch makes Luna a focal point of the USMNT when everyone is available. If he doesn’t, he’s accomplished nothing over the last year and might as well move on.

I’m not convinced that he’s good enough to make a difference, but he’s the epitome of what Poch is selling.

 

Moving around makes a better player even better. Part of why they improve is that they are willing to go test themselves against better competition. What does MLS have to do with it? The competition is simply inferior and our best players are not going to improve there as well as if they go to tougher competition overseas. Having watched and attended MLS matches since season 1 it is patently obvious to me ... perhaps in another 25 years - but we are a long way from it becoming a top league - ergo the best young US players need to go overseas. Or else our USMNT has simply hit its limit.

Many of these even lower players could go overseas to a much lower league and try via that path if they like. Fact is when they stay in the US their ceiling will be limited. If that is not obvious to you - there is really not much more I can say. Moving around teams and improving in Europe is good for the quality US players. Staying in the MLS is just bad for the USMNT.

Whether the player was better or not at the start matters in terms of what kind of a deal they can get when they land on the continent - not whether they improve from that point on. From that point on, they either succeed or not - and if they succeed they will be a much better player than if they stayed in the MLS and the benefit to the USMNT is substantial ... of course they can do what they like - I am only concerned here in terms of what it does for the USMNT.

No player comes in to the MLS to improve - unless it is from college, to an academy, or a younger player from South/Central America or Europe (that is looking to get a start elsewhere) .. but they certainly don't come in to the MLS looking to improve so they can start for the Brazilian or Argentine or the English national team. MLS is simply a stepping stone ... no one may like to hear that - but that is what it is good for right now. And the older players (Messi, Suarez etc.) are here to half retire, enjoy the good life, and a place for their family. They aren't here looking to make their mark on the world. They already did that.

 

I would submit to you that if the World Cup were today Gio would not be on the roster nor would he deserve to be so. But obviously lots of time for him to get back in the mix.

 

Indeed, the cohort born from 1993-1996 (guys currently 28+) are providing us with the following field players: Morris, White, Blackmon and Moore. Meanwhile the 1997-2000 cohort has 28 field players called up this year. The 2001-2004 cohort has 31. That first cohort is killing our depth. Instead of grizzled veteran leaders we have a veritable black hole of talent. The other problem is that the third cohort has not reached expectations at the top end. They're still very talented but haven't pushed the first cohort starters as much as we need.

 

Lots of players improve in MLS and lots of players go to Europe and regress and stagnate.

MLS is not a top 5 league but it’s roughly equivalent to the Championship (maybe slightly behind) and it’s not at all the way you make it out to be.

 

I guess we'll see at CWC but it seems he's had small undisclosed injuries that have limited him at times to small minutes, he's never fully recovered from one or a combination of his injuries or he either doesn't fit the recent Dortmund style or he's got some sort of mental problem. If it's injuries he does have time to recover and is in the same boat as Pepi, Jedi, Balogun etc. We'll unfortunately add players to that list as our pool is never very healthy.