USA goalkeeper discussion thread - Episode IV: No Hope

At their best:

Shot Stopper (and yes that's the most important aspect) - Turner
Best in the air - Freese
Best with the ball at their feet - Freese
Best in reading upcoming attack - Wash
Best positioning - Wash

So the only area where I rate Turner ahead is in shot stopping but Turner has been no where close to his peak. Today its Feese's job and its not even close.

 

He isn't worse than 4 years ago, and has never been great. Still a very nice locker room guy while younger, more competitive guys might not be.

 

When Turner was at the top of his game, he was better than Freese is now. However, Turner is a basket case now and Freese is full of confidence, so it is a no-brainer to play Freese.

 

through the wc, with the single most important factor for the nats is playing with feet, so no one should consider moving abroad if the thats is a priority for them.

i think both freese and turner could move abroad after, free of that arbitrary requirement (and avoiding club situations where its just as required). lyon was never the smart/"compromise" move for turner, for example.

i think their paths are more likely a stepping stone level (second divisions) than top 5, or non-top 5 "major" w/euro play (turkey, portugal, eredivise, belgium).

i dont think a bottom half, lower top 5 (so ligue 1, or consistently above the relegation zone sides) is out of the question but its a real tough needle to thread.

im completely open to a genuine top level #2 (which consistently provides 10-12 matches per seasons, more in eng), but turner decisively showed he wasnt that at his best. and obviously keepers tend to peak late, but neither he nor freese have a ton of road in front of them. friedels path is probably the only likely and best case scenario)

im all for guys pushing themselves as far as they can, and if guys wants to be overpaid in mls (or battle for promotion in serie b) thats ok too- though that should be reflected in nt selection.

but poch, and very likely his successor, make that path of pushing yourself the least compatible with nt play, and thats counterintuitive to raising the quality level of the pool. all non-competitive factors (however valid) aside, thats not close to changing. we/mls is still firmly comparable to second divisions, no higher. on the pitch. actual level of ability.

just disagree silently in your head and move on with your day, please and thank you. i truly wish there were a dislike button for you to smash, but there isnt.

 

https://www.goal.com/en-us/lists/th...wards-a-usmnt-opportunity/bltc78f0c33dff588c1

 

Side note MLS Goalies:
Goalies in PSxG+- Per 90:
1. Johnson: +.36
2. Turner: +0.33 (sample size trap?)
3. Steffen: +.15
4. Freese +.12
5. Stuver +.12
6. Celentano +.02
7. Schulte +.09
8. Brady +.05

Interesting to see Turner, all be it in very small sample size, near the top.

 

It is interesting Steffen seems out of the picture despite perhaps his best shotstopping season ever.

 

Just in terms of physical tools and some of his shotstopping technique, it would not be a shock to see Turner get his pre-move form back.

He could easily take the #1 back, and is certainly the only guy on this list that I think could be more than steady. I guess Steffen could be that, but his downside is much higher, IMO.

 

I'd agree the sample size here -- 8 games -- really is too small. You'll see a lot of movement in these rankings between the first 8 games of the season and the next 8 (let alone the next 26).

I do think this is a useful corrective to the narrative that was starting to form here about Turner looking broken in MLS -- based largely on two games, including one really bad performance against Chicago. Outside of that, he's generally looked pretty solid, hence the numbers above.

But the thing that made Turner a top MLS goalkeeper and the US number 1 for an extended period in the past was how rare the truly bad performances were. The game he had against Chicago was a once-a-season type of thing, and the gaffe he made against Switzerland this summer generally didn't happen with the US. You're going to need a full season at least to get a sense of just how rare those really are now. If it's twice every eight games, that's not going to cut it, and I don't think those numbers will stay that high. Unlike Turner, I don't watch Matt Freese every game, but my sense is that right now he has that sort of consistency that Turner used to have.

(I remember back in 2021 someone who was campaigning against making Turner the #1 had to resort to posting clips from MLS where Turner didn't get a strong enough glove on a difficult shot or where he could have maybe cut off a cross that led to an unstoppable shot on goal if he'd come off his line. I'd be thrilled if those are the type of plays we're debating next season.)

 

Who's Freese's backup?

 

I’m not convinced he is locked as the starter (though he clearly has the pole position). The play on the cross was great. I don’t blame him for the goal, but I think he could have been better. And his play with his feet was unimpressive—he came very close to coughing up the ball in the PA and made a few passes that put teammates in tough positions. I think both Fresse and Turner our as close to roster locks as you get in the 1 and 2 slots, with the next few months deciding if Turner can recapture the starting role. As of now, I don’t feel there is a lot to differentiate them—and Freese has inertia strongly on his side, so seems his spot to lose, but not a lock.

 

Freese is very solid but he will never be spectacular.

Turner's form has come into focus in MLS in the last few weeks; a locked in Turner absolutely could take the job.

 

My thoughts exactly. I thought he could have come out a bit further and slightly more to his right and cut-off the shot (it wasn't right in at the post), but overall, a good performance. I think it's neck and neck between him and Turner. Would be nice to see Turner on Tuesday to see how he looks with the NT.

 

As an old guy, let me say you would have said the same thing about Friedel at that stage

 

Comparing Friedel to Freese? That's fair -- Freese is still pretty young for a keeper.

 

the point is, we dont know Freese's ceiling

 

If you had to choose one of two approaches: 1) Locked-in starter - play Freese or (less likely) Turner in all of the remaining friendly/build up matches; or 2) Open competition - split time (here Freese v Ecuador, so Turner v Australia) one match each the rest of the way (or at least through November), which would you choose?

Very tempting to let Turner play v Australia tomorrow, because the closer we get to June, the more we'll want to build 'you're the man' confidence in one guy and give him all the reps.

 

I think I'd go open competition. Maybe I'm letting the last NE match I watched influence me too much, but I think there's a decent chance that Turner does get his form back, and then he's potentially a difference maker for me.

Plus, I think it goes with the theme of the culture shift -- why should keeper be that different from everywhere else?

 

I honestly have no idea about the latter thought. He's only been a full time starter for 2 seasons, doesn't feel like that, but it's true. He's been firmly in the domestic top 8-10 keepers both seasons, currently is 4th ranked, behind Steffen, Johnson and Turner.

Turner doesn't have enough sample size to climb into the rankings, but if he did, he'd already be at the top again like six years ago, trailing only Johnson who seems to be having a career season in what should be dotage.

It's a weird situation because Turner's #'s aren't quite at the otherworldly level they were in '19 and '20, but he is ahead of where he was back in '21 in MLS. So....what do we do with that?

In my case, and seemingly in Poch's, the trust was/is gone, he just had way too many wtf?!?! moments to be trusted anymore. Freese has very little sample size as a starter, but the available evidence is that Freese has never played goalie at the level Turner did '19-'21, and currently. However, with Freese, you pretty much know what you're getting. Most of the saves that are savable, are saved, no dumb--- mistakes so far (it would be nice if they had a howler/stupid decision metric, so we could see just how bad Steffen and Turner are compared to the rest at that), and he makes the occasional great saves, and he's great with penalties.

With Turner, there's just too much Yuck going back 2+ years for me to trust him, I imagine Poch may give him a start or two over the next 3 windows, but maybe not, maybe Turner played his way out of the shirt. It's an interesting question. I don't trust Turner anymore, period, and I'll need years, kinda like Steffen, just not as many, to trust the guy, so there's largely nothing he can do to win the job for me, Freese can lose it, but Turner's exit from the dog house at this point would require Freese to fumble it away.

I also would have called up Kochen this past window, and given him a start in November.

 

If Freese is your number one, I think you have to give him as many starts as possible between now and next summer.

No matter how many friendlies he starts between now and then, he's already going to enter that tournament with the fewest caps (and by far the fewest competitive appearances) of any USMNT starting goalkeeper in any major tournament, at least since before 1994. So I'd have to think every minute counts for a lot at this point.

 

The #'s say he has his form back. I just don't care, I want to know that he's no longer a colossal idiot fixated on playing the ball out of the back well, and letting slip ALL the basics of shot stopping which is what he became '22-'23, to fall '25, and you don't build back trust that a guy isn't gonna avoid a hideous mistake (which he was making repeatedly) with anything other than time and loads and loads of sample size evidence.

I just don't think there's enough time left to build back that trust. 1/3 of an MLS season or whatever is just not enough, period no matter how well he happens to be playing within it. Nor the start of the '26 season. He doesn't have enough time to rebuild trust for people like me. The only thing that gets him in is if Freese repeatedly makes similar idiotic mistakes, removing the trust he's managed to build up since June, w/largely bonehead free play.

I don't think Freese can make the same level of game changing stops that an in form Turner can make, I'll totally concede that, but I also think it's far less likely that Freese makes absolutely ridiculous, and moronic decisions in the box, or positioning mistakes like Turner's last start or two either, and at this point, I think most of the fan base just wants a sound goalie that has his positioning down, makes the saves that are savable and a once in a while a holy ---- save, or a penalty save. We've basically spent the two years previous to Freese's starts having no clue what idiotic mistake our GK might make, start to start, but fearing one would happen in a way we never really did in the 90s, the aughts, or the previous decade. We had a rough stretch before Turner's Gold Cup run in '21, and after, where we had no idea what to expect from Steffen '19-'22 either, so there was that, but other than Steffen, we were used to sound keeping for decades, and for a huge chunk of '19-'25 (other than Turner's starts in '21 and '22) that confidence evaporated. Freese has brought it back.

I'm not opening the competition again after Turner played like total --- for club and country for nearly two years straight just because he's been good in MLS for two months. That strikes me as ridiculous. He lost the job for real, tangible reasons, and Freese took it. The only way he gets it back is if Freese gives it back to him (and if we're talking other positions, there are other players that have basically had a lock on positions for years including Weah, Pulisic, McKennie, Adams, Dest, Jedi, whichever striker is healthy between Balo and Pepi etc). Freese will be the starter at the WC unless he makes a total mess of things across the next couple of windows.

 

Some interesting details you only learn when you read certainty where you're not sure there should be certainty:

Howard started the Confed Cup in '03 against Turkey, Brazil and Cameroon, with only 4 90's in his back pocket. So that would be less. He's the only dude I can think of though.

My issue with Freese, and Kochen, and Schulte and Celentano, is that I want our FB's, CB's, and Mids/wings familiar with the keepers, so they aren't completely at a loss for what the dude will do. The guys know Turner, they are only now learning Freese, it's probably too late for Schulte or Celentano or Schulte barring injury, but I'd probably still give at least Kochen, and maybe Schulte reps over the next 2.5 windows but Turner? Turner needs others like Freese to fumble this away.

 

Fair, though this was the quote Bruce Arena gave immediately after we were eliminated from the tournament in just the 2nd group stage game:

"I was very pleased" U.S. coach Bruce Arena said. "We played a number of young players in this game and they did well. These are the type of experiences we need to get better. These games are invaluable for us and if we can show improved performance in each and every game then it's been a successful tournament for us. I don't worry about the wins right now. Our objective is to prepare a new team for (World Cup) qualifying next year."

It sounds like we were more comfortable blooding inexperienced players in that tournament than we would be in a World Cup or most Copa America tournaments.

 

And he has a German passport to help