USA goalkeeper discussion thread - Episode IV: A New Hope

I dunno if its "over for him," just yet.

But as we've mentioned for a few years now, if he continues to be a highly compensated match attendee, then he doesn't have much of an immediate future in the pool. And that's OK, if that's what he wants.

But if he wants to continue his international career, then he needs to find minutes.


For Kochen under Pochettino, it'll be interesting if Poch's affinity to Espanyol will impact his willingness to select a Culer.

 

Did Boavista ever even pay FC Dallas for the transfer? I don’t understand how they could not pay his wages, not pay his transfer fee, and somehow he owes them money.

 

I think they're just treated as separate issues, legally.

Basically, from what I understand, Dallas won a judgment against Boavista making them liable for the outstanding transfer fee (with Cannon not a party to that dispute), and Boavista won a judgment against Cannon and QPR making them jointly and severally liable for Cannon terminating his contract with Boavsita without cause (with Dallas not a party to that dispute).

If nobody has paid anything yet (and I honestly have no idea), then Boavista would still owe Dallas money, and Cannon and/or QPR would still owe Boavista money, with neither obligation affecting the other.

Regarding Boavista not paying his wages, it does sound like they had failed to pay a couple months wages, but that wasn't deemed egregious enough to justify Cannon terminating his contract with them, so he was still found liable for that.

 

Who decides that? Portugal, Portugal's League, Eufa or Fifa? If not Fifa they need to make some rules to protect players.

 

I believe FIFA made that ruling. And I'm sort of guessing at the 2 months' wages part, just based on the amount FIFA found that Boavista still owed Cannon in that same ruling -- somewhere between €45k and €78k, depending on how much of that was tacked on to penalize Boavista for its failure. It may be less than 2 months' wages. It's even possible that Boavista simply withheld that amount once they learned of Cannon's intentions to terminate the contract, but that would probably be giving them a huge, undeserved benefit of the doubt.

 

Really the best thing Cannon could have done to protect himself was go back to Dallas with hat in hand and say he'll play for a cut-rate price. That way if Boavista ever attempts to recoup that $, Dallas could threaten in return to get their greater sum. Otherwise it'd just be a stalemate.

But there was probably pride involved the way that relationship ended with Reggie bad-mouthing them & their fans (+ MLS). I don't know what the Colorado safety net could be paying Reggie after he washed out of the Championship. It would have to be pushing 1 million per somehow to justify this route if he had the other option.

 

In fact, the two issues were decided by different governing bodies.

The issue between Dallas and Boavista was ruled on by the Court for Arbitration of Sport in 2023. They set a deadline for when Boavista HAD to pay Dallas. Then that deadline was missed. So I have no clue what's going on with that...................

Anyway, the point vis-a-vi a player like Schulte is that the grass may not be greener on the other side. A lot of Europe is a mess financially.

...........but..................

Most clubs actually don't pay their keepers a lot in MLS. The Top 25 Highest-Paid MLS Goalkeepers in 2024 (frontofficesports.com)

Like Maarten Paes of FC Dallas, who is having a great season, is making $325k. Drake Callendar makes $375k. Roman Celentano $425k.

So is paying a goalkeeper a million a year in MLS the right allocation of salary cap/roster slot strategy for Columbus? No matter how much they like Patrick Schulte? MLS clubs don't seem to think so.

Matt Turner had a base salary of $1.8 million to sit on the bench at Arsenal. So we see the challenge. its easy for us to say we'd prefer that Schulte start in MLS than sit on the bench for a big Euro team. But salary wise, that can be apples-and-oranges.

 

CAS is who you appeal to. I believe Cannon also has the right to appeal to them (and may do so). FIFA makes the initial ruling but you can appeal if you disagree.

 

Yes they are separate issues legally for sure. Just pointing out the ridiculousness of the decision.

Like in a situation like this, ownership of his rights should revert back to Dallas (though obviously that’s not what happened).

Sources: FC Dallas have still not received any payment from Boavista for the Sept. 2020 transfer of Reggie Cannon.

The case went to Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) who ruled in favor of Dallas. CAS set a deadline for payment (fee + interest). That deadline has been missed.

— Tom Bogert (@tombogert) March 4, 2023

Many of the CAS decisions are also public (but I haven’t found the Dallas/Boavista one yet), whereas I don’t think the FIFA has published the more recent Cannon one (though I found the original on the transfer dispute https://digitalhub.fifa.com/m/1cc730bad593a69a/original/Reginald-Cannon.pdf).

 

Gaga's really struggling again.

After a calamity or 2 the prior game, he shipped 3 to Stevenage over the weekend. No egregious errors, but could have saved at least 1. Today, it's no surprise Man U are throttling Barnsley, but he poorly timed a sweeping attempt to give away a penalty for one, & his technique w/ a man in on goal is poor. He's biting hard on any movement to give away the whole goal ahead of time.

The calls for him to be our #1, or even get caps, off a few good games in League One; were utterly ridiculous. Stop fetishizing extreme youth & random Euro association. How many times do people have to make the same mistake? Let players prove it over time at a respectable level & then w/ our nat'l teams.

Game was on Paramount+: https://www.paramountplus.com/live-tv/stream/efl-cup/2be3d328-6ca0-4a88-81ef-85ceef4ed4b6/

Here were the other match highlights:

 

Yeah, I don't understand that. From where I come from. If you don't pay the wages once, that's a wrap. ---- You. We are done. The contract requires the wages be paid. If you aren't paying wages, YOU ARENT EMPLOYING THE INDIVIDUAL.

That's what I found so nuts about it. "Oh we didn't pay him for a few months, no big deal". Well, then I'm no longer contracted with you, period. That should be open & shut to me. I guess they have loopholes that allow clubs to avoid doing the most basic of things like paying someone they're freaking salary, but that's absurd to me. The second Boavista missed a check, Cannon should have been a free agent instantly, in my view. It's absurd that he wasn't. Just like if the player doesn't show up, when he's employed by you, well, you don't pay them anything, it goes both ways, if it doesn't, the system is broken, period.

 

Or you could be overreacting to two rough games.

I will fully admit I'm over my skis with him a bit, but I also think at this point, the season is what, five weeks old? He's had like 2 or 3 great games, 1 mediocre one, and 2 bad ones? Or is it 3? It's all sample sizes, today and the weekend were ---, a few weeks ago he was awesome, and before that more middling, up and down.

What makes it different for me, is that, when I'm looking at the other options, how is this different from Turner's calamitous keeping in the Copa America? Or Horvath's Howler every other start? Or the totally uneven and inconsistent patterns of the C's, or of Schulte, I think your guy, killing it against New Zealand, and Guinea, but getting his --- handed to him against France and Morocco? It's all of a piece. None of them have been consistent across the board in anything, which is why I'm inclined to turn to shiny new toys like Schulte, like Kochen, like Gaga, like Freese, because they haven't had their shot at the job, and at this point we know what Horvath and Steffen are, we know that Turner's screwed in terms of playing time, and we need to look other directions. Those directions are the best MLS guys and the two best Euro guys playing, Kochen and Gaga. That's what we got.

So no, its not ridiculous. Or were you fine with the 7 goals Schulte gave up against Morocco and France (9 in 3 games if you include the friendly in March?).

Am I over my skis? Yeah, but I'm open to experimenting, that's my core thing, I want to try out these guys, blood them, get them reps because right now it doesn't look like Turner is going to play this year, period, as a starter barring injury, and that means we need to be aggressive in getting guys reps and finding who should be in contention for 1 and 2, and who should be in contention for the group.

For now going into the October window, I'm wanting Schulte, Kochen, and either Freese or Turner. If Gaga gets right again, I'll consider him, small sample size theater though it be.

 

Why weren't you overreacting to a few good games in a league worse than our domestic one which he played in and was worse than numerous American options there too (and since regressed)?

The burden of proof is on the one making the suggestion. Players need to put together a body of work that warrants initial cap, let alone many. Slonina's never done that.

You admit you're pushing an agenda here by acting like Schulte's senior friendly actually works against his case. The Schulte who was better than Slonina in MLS, then out-played him in friendlies to win the u-23 job. And he really only had one bad game there, vs. France in the Olympics. It's not like he was at fault for any of those Morocco goals. Don't double down & make this worse.

BTW, I don't have a guy. That's the difference between me and you. I've said it can be Freese too. Hell Celentano, even Callender are worth tries. Those are viable experiments, cuz they are actually good at their job at a respectable level, which is something Slonina's never accomplished. He's just been young, played some, hasn't been terrible. You want to anoint a guy cuz he attracted your attention at some point, and then play him independent of overall performance.

Experiments just for the sake of them, like a good League One gk'er for a few games, are just a waste of experiments/caps. You accomplish nothing. Call them up when they warrant it. Team USA in '24 is beneath utilizing a League One player, who's there because he struggled in a 2nd rate league abroad. Not because he's Jude Bellingham & the next big thing, but Birmingham City have dropped to the 3rd tier this yr. Even if Slonina didn't regress to the mean, and had a breakout, at League 1 level, who cares. At levels just about everyone else at the senior team is at (MLS, lowlands, etc.), or better, they were good, and he was mediocre at best.

 

The problem is that our goalkeeping situation is that bad. All of our keeper options suck. Schulte and Celentano might be the only 2 decent options. Might be.

 

They're bad, FOR OUR STANDARDS, not relative to Slonina. The likes of Freese, Schulte, Celentano, Callender are notably good MLS keepers; which Slonina wasn't. And Turner has a decent record for the senior team, while being a #2 at EPL clubs. I don't think Slonina was top 5 for Chelsea. Getting Matt right would be more useful than playing Slonina (of course I fully favor experiments of those other MLS gk'ers).

So there is a right and wrong here, in spite of the situation being bad for us. It's not like we should just throw our hands up at that pt, be nihilistic about it, & play any ol' body. How about you or I then?

 

What about Freese? I'd give it to Schulte now simply due to the MLS performance and solid performance in the window mixed w/exposure to the defense, but I want the other options to get opportunities too. I don't think we have a remotely clear idea who will be the best options 20 months from now. How? The only way to handle it is like that squirt gun horse racing game carnivals have, right now the Schulte horse is out front for me, but it's super early.

 

So far, the US is doing exactly what I hoped they would do, and that’s pick a guy who the management rates, who actually plays week to week and ride with him until he shows he’s not that guy.
Forget about veteran guys that don’t play (Turner) or have shown poorly at club (Horvath). I hoped Slonina was that guy but he wasn’t selected in the Olympics, so that was a big sign he wasn’t the guy they rated.
That’s fine, and Schulte looks like the right call after all.
Why you have to get all weird about that I don’t understand but that’s fine, too. If you’re looking for acknowledgment that your opinion Slonina isn’t ready is the right one, I’ll give it to you. If you really believe I’m stupid for pushing for Slonina, I’ll give you that, too. Happy?

 

I hear you. I’m just saying we are in desperate times at keeper to the point that it’s not completely insane that Slonina’s name has been suggested.

At the moment, my ranked goalkeepers are:

{of note, I’ll rank 0-100 on how good I think they are; 100 = legend, 90 = world class, 80 = international class, 70 = above average, 60 = average, 50 = below average…. On the left is their current level and on the right is their ceiling}

1. Patrick Schulte ~ not Tim Howard but I don’t know who beats him out {72-78}
2. Roman Celentano ~ most underrated keeper in MLS, IMO. {72-77}
3. Diego Kochen ~ rises to #3 just on hope. {66-86}
4. Matt Freese ~ could climb the list, but his injury setback and the fact that this has been his breakout year puts him lower than Celentano and Schulte, in my eyes. {69-75}
5. Gabriel Slonina - At least he’s playing. And he’s young. {68 - 81}
6. Matt Turner ~ in free fall. I would dump him the first chance that a decent keeper emerges or he actually figures out how to get out of this funk. {71-72}
7. Ethan Horvath ~ another keeper we should dump as soon as it’s possible to do so. {68-70}
8. Chris Brady - Probably not ever going to be in the picture. {67 - 77}
9 Zack Steffen - How the mighty have fallen {66 - 72}
10. Drake Callender - Not “it.” {65-69}

 

First, that wasn't directed at you. I didn't recall who made the suggestion, outside grandinquisitor, because he went hard in that regard. Actually, outside this board, Tony Meola was doing it. I suppose that's good co. to be wrong with about a gk situation.

Second, I don't think this goes significantly into criteria who's smart, or not. I just thought elevating a League One GK to starter or top experimental position is what was weird. We can have a much higher standard of proof than that, especially when the guy just failed in a respectable league, & we have so a bunch of guys who've done well in one. I think some are holding on too long to him having been the next guy in the program, others it's the Euro fetishization, but I don't do think that's you, so I assume it's the former.

Maybe Slonina ultimately does become a bonafide starting option down the line. But we can let that process play out instead of forcing it. After the initial emergence, his development hasn't been linear, and he's regressed if anything.

I'm not right about Schulte because I didn't have a firm opinion in the 1st place and he still hasn't proven much w/ our seniors. But he, and a handful of other guys, are better theories for 2024-26 than Gaga. And that's what we need to focus on right now, before we potentially just circle back to Turner and hope he's in form + suffices for another WC.

 

Freese is already back, & statistically he had a big game in his return. I don't think a minor injury should impact the evaluation.

And he had a strong 10 game performance last year, to where he was already on radars. He's at least the Brandon Vazquez of gk'ers then, when he was breaking out w/ Cincy.. Guy w/ 1 & a third good seasons + toolsy. So I think you're under-selling him.

And vis a vis Callender, he's another guy w/ solid tools, solid stats, who's won a lot, & shown a potential penchant for coming up big in bigger games. Still "only" 26. He's around as old as when Turner initially broke out. I could see him elevating his play here too. So I think you're under-selling him as an option, even though he'd be like 4th to me, in terms of near future caps.

 

Fair enough. I’ll have to continue to monitor him.

 

Still disappointed Turner didn't go for the Bundesliga or La Liga interest.

Not everyone is cut out for the Premier League. Best to keep using that EU passport.

 

I don’t think it was Turner’s choice not to try La Liga or the Bundesliga.

 

A bit harsh to say a 20 year old Chris Brady is never going to be in the picture.

 

Holy fvkcing shyte, that would have been bad and dumb.

If Matt Turner, a player with an allergy to the ball at his feet can't hack it in the EPL, there's no FOOKIN' way he'd be able to play in a league where comfort with the ball is more important above all else.

I mean, a living, breathing laugh track like Pickford starts in the EPL. But La Liga is no place for any player without technique and comfort with the ball, GK included.