USA goalkeeper discussion thread - Episode IV: A New Hope

Supposedly Steffen has played better in Leagues Cup though I haven’t watched. His MLS numbers are pretty dire though. His shot stopping numbers are currently the worst of any goalie in the league. Freese is the best and Schulte is 6th overall with two other US eligible ahead of him (Clark and McCarthy).

 

At that point, both are irrelevant. There are double-digit American MLS keepers better than Zack, many of whom are much younger to enjoy improvement.

This is where Poch & co. are going to have to show some scouting chops, and apparently on Apple+ from London. He can pay the 10 bucks a month when he'll be making 7 m/yr (guess), and endure watching some games (the next day) when he only has to manage 1 per month himself.

He also could just read a stat page. It is 2024.

Beyond Turner, the list he's going to have to sift thru includes: Schulte, Freese, Celentano, Brady, Callender. Pick 2 & do your due-diligence. I wouldn't call up Turner this next camp to clear the way for opportunities.

 

Burnley had 4 shots on target against Cardiff but scored 5 goals. Ooof

 

Another youngster to keep an eye on.

Giorgio De Marzi (07) 🇺🇸🇮🇹 signs a pro contract with Roma. De Marzi helped Roma’s U17s win the scudetto this past season.

De Marzi also made the bench for the first team in a preseason friendly earlier this summer.#USMNT pic.twitter.com/2zk4FOt1QW

— USMNT burner (@burnerusmnt) August 17, 2024

 

All these youngsters who wouldn't be useful til like 2030.

We need a stopgap to get us til 2026, someone who can get the job done and unfortunately everyone keeps coming up sharp.

 

100%

One would think we should have one capable keeper starting with some success even if they were in the likes of Finland.

Whatever happened to Josh Cohen? He should have been given a cap just to test himself. Just frustrating when you compare to 20 years ago or even 10 years ago at the level of keepers we had.

 

And I continue to argue that we should just take our lumps with the kiddos and move on. Turner is the only veteran whose got a cv that includes consistent excellence from years past over lots of years that I know of, so keeping him on the edge is something I'd consider, but beyond that, yeah, I'm rolling with Gaga, Schulte, Brady, Kochen and friends and taking my lumps. I don't think ANY of these vets other than Turner have any chance of being viable in '26, so I want to get our defense and young GK's used to the kiddos. I don't want to be sitting in a March '26 friendly, panicking because we've spent the previous 18 months trying to make our dog ---- "veteran keepers" become something they are not: Talented.

I remain open to the idea that Turner could turn this around but the problem is that he and his agents needed to realize how critical it was for him to find a move this summer so he could become a starter somewhere, anywhere, in the big 5+1 or the Championship or whatever. If he and his agent prioritized $$$, and they did, then good night Irene. I'm not handing the job back to him simply because he earned it in '21, and has been hot garbage at the club level since '22. No thank you. Turn the page to the kids, Kochen and Gaga have the best pedigree, call them in, figure out another guy between Freese, Brady, Schulte and who else.

I know this isn't gonna happen but it should. We wasted several years, YEARS, trying to make Steffen not suck ('19-'22), we can't do that again with WC '26 less than two years away. Give the kiddos their turn, the vets have done NOTHING to earn this, and all of them appear to be crap. I'd rather take the best performing vet and 2 kiddos or, 3 kiddos+more in future windows and just have them fight it out over every full international the next year. There should be at least 4 windows, maybe 5, over the next 10 months. Use them on the kids. I do not care if they are struggling with their club. Big deal, Horvath is a total disaster, Steffen is donezo, Johnson is joining AARP for goalies, and Turner chose bags of money. Call in the kids.

 

And ftr, Kochen and Gaga should be called in for the September friendlies, Turner can get lost, but I know we're gonna call him in. Fine, but call in Gaga and Kochen.

As for Schulte. He didn't earn an "F" in the Olympics, I knew he wasn't as bad as a pretty crappy opening performance against France, but he wasn't good either. He remains in the pool, one of four or five exciting goalie prospects along with Gaga, Brady and Kochen, but I think Schulte's performance underlined why you shouldn't swallow whole recency bias, like Mitro seemed to. Other than the past couple of months of a disappointing Belgian season, there's literally never been a time ever, where Schulte was regarded as more talented, EVER, than Gaga. Now Gaga opens '24-'25 with back to back man of the match performances for Barnsley, reminding people of why he should be WAY ahead of Schulte in the goalie competition.

 

We have Gaga, Kochen, Brady, Schulte as kiddos, and a grab bag of rando of the month MLS vets. Our problem is we've been trying to force Horvath into being good enough for our backup for the past seven years when he's never been able to grab and hold a keeper job ever, relying on a 47 year old as our backup in Johnson, and pretending that Turner hasn't fallen off a cliff over the past 2-2.5 years since moving to Europe.

TURN THE PAGE TO THE KIDS AND TAKE OUR LUMPS WITH THEM. We need Kochen and Gaga to get reps with that back line and the midfield/wingers so that by winter '25-'26, just 15 months from now, they don't make "lack of reps together" horror show errors. Quit trying to make the vets a thing. They are all ----.

 

No, Schulte did not receive a passing grade for me at the olympics. Give it to Gaga and Kochen.

 

I need to add, one of the things that will excite me, is that Poch won't be married to any of these crap goalie vets we have. In fact that only goalies he's probably familiar with are Gaga and Turner, so he'll be much more open to the kids. The only thing I know for sure is that I'll be beyond irate if we roll into our first full internationals in '25, and continue to call up are trash vets. I'm praying that he's open to radical ideas and at least taking two kids to every window and opening the competition. He needs to. Turner should have lost his job, and the kids should legit have a chance to grab it back. Steffen and Horvath have long since played their way out of the competition and shouldn't even be under consideration, same with Johnson even though he provided a sterling floor to goal keeping in spot starts over the last 12 or so years.

Time to move on. I really hope he's really open to taking radical action. The vet options are simply totally and completely unacceptable.

 

What I expect:
Turner, Horvath, Schulte or Gaga

What should happen:
Gaga, Kochen, Turner

If Poch had been hired earlier, I think the latter could happen, with Varas handling this window, I tend to think it will be just a plugged in call up with potentially some influence from Poch depending on when the contract details are finally ironed out with Chelsea.

I just don't think Varas will have the stones to do something radical like just toss out the veteran detritus that is playing like total ---, and go for the kiddos, but its possible. Varas used Gaga as the #1 at the U20 WC 15 months ago after all. But he may just go with the autoselect vet button, and he may not want to call up Gaga when Gaga has started so fast w/his new club.

But yeah, it absolutely should be 2 kids and Turner, and Turner should sit the ---- down, having chosen the money. But I think it will be two vets, and either Johnson, Schulte or Gaga instead. I hope I'm wrong, it would make me ecstatic to be wrong.

The vets deserve NOTHING with the way they are playing, nothing, their veteraness, w/mostly crap careers other than Turner, should not trump turning the page, regardless of Brady or Gaga's uneven play in '24 and '23-'24, or Kochen's inexperience. Don't care. Turn the page. WE KNOW THE VETS SUCK. WE DO NOT KNOW IF THE KIDS CAN BE GOOD. That is what's motivating my argument, and some of these kids, at bare minimum, have already done what the vets did as kiddos in MLS, or in Kochen's case, have risen seemingly farther in esteem with legit clubs than any of the vets going back to Guzan and Howard a decade ago. TURN THE FREAKING PAGE. We could lose Kochen if we don't play this right.

 

Just throwing the young players out there before they are ready doesn’t accomplish anything.

Both Kochen and Slonina are playing in the third division currently and at a level lower than MLS. Just because they have potential doesn’t mean that they would do better if thrown into the senior team right now. What does it tell you about Slonina that the Olympic team decided to start Schulte over him? Or his performance last season in Belgium? (albeit for a terrible team).

There’s nothing satisfying about our current goalkeeping options but we don’t really have alternatives right now outside of the MLS options (Freese, Schulte, etc). The youngsters just aren’t ready it. The thing about a national team is you can’t just make the youngsters ready just because you want to. And it doesn’t make sense to call them up ahead of goalies who aren’t currently better than they are.

 

As I posted in the MLS thread, Steffen was fantastic last night.

Steffen heroics
Colorado wouldn't have survived without Steffen. The U.S. international was unbeatable in goal, making several highlight-reel saves during the match before extending the heroics in the shootout. He made one save before eventually converting the winning spot kick himself to book a semifinal date at LAFC's BMO Field Wednesday (10 pm ET | MLS Season Pass).


https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/adios-liga-mx-steffen-leads-rapids-magical-run-to-leagues-cup-semis

 

My response to these arguments is simple.
Horvath is horrible
Turner hasn't played consistent minutes in 18 months and not been good in two years.
Johnson's retired
Steffen sucks
We don't know if Celentano or Callendar etc will ever be good.

The best developmental prospects are Gaga, Kochen, Brady, Schulte, probably some guys I don't know.

I get that you're argument is we shouldn't be going with inexperienced guys that we don't know are good, but we already know the vets suck, period.

Is there anyone other than Freese that looks like he might be good? Callendar, and Celentano rise and fall statistically, nothings really consistent that I can see with Celentano, not sure about Callendar.

I don't really care that kids aren't ready. Now doesn't matter. '26 does. Getting them experience the next 22 months is critical. We should not be just sitting on our hands hoping vets we know aren't good enough, can suddenly be good enough in some small window of time. I'd rather turn the page to the kids, ready or not. Period. And live with the bumps now, than wait and force it in '26 or wait so long we have to ride utter ---- vets, and guys sitting on the bench like Turner at a WC.

In a sidenote, I view Schulte starting over Gaga as the result of Gaga having a lost crap season in Belgium and Schulte riding a heater in MLS. Fine, Schulte road a heater, Gaga has been consistently seen as one of the best GK's around from his birth year for close to 5 years, I'm not gonna allow a crap lost season with one of the worst teams in Belgium to convince me that recency bias trumps all. And if he is or was that bad (and recency bias says he's been a stud the past two weeks), fine, lets show him we have confidence in him as we build going forward by calling him up.

We need to move on from the vets, not play some waiting game hoping known crap is better than raw prospects, some w/lots of experience, some with limited.

 

Leagues Cup doesn't mean s**t anymore. Liga MX shredded MLS teams, outside Columbus (who were beaten in the final), in CCL. At that point they had to be like what's the point of Leagues Cup anymore. It's a rigged tourney. Basically classifies as a glorified exhibition.

In MLS play, Steffen was one of the worst keepers in the league, in a variety of measures. The eye test may have been even worse. Then the 1st match of Leagues Cup against an MLS team he & Colorado got shredded. Since, 4 games against Liga MX, 4 wins for both. Coincidence? Last year that would have meant more, now it means less.

 

Slonina has one of the best in his age group but it’s not as if he was better than Schulte when he was in MLS. And I don’t think he’s better now, but that’s understandable given that he’s three years younger. Now he’s playing at League One which is a lower level than MLS. He’s looked good his first two games but so has Donovan Pines and we wouldn’t call him up despite similar issues at centerback. And it’s not just recency bias to point out Slonina’s time in Belgium. That’s one of two full seasons we’ve seen of him as a professional. He was on a bad team but he also didn’t show anything that really pointed to him deserving real minutes with the senior team.

Meanwhile with Kochen I believe he’s yet to even start a professional match. I think he will this year with Barca B but he’s not near to ready to real minutes for the USMNT.

The thing is neither Slonina and Kochen are very likely to be ready by 2026. Both are still very good prospects versus ready to start World Cup games. Slonina will be 22 come the World Cup and Kochen will be 20. How many goalies 22 and under started at last World Cup? I believe the answer is zero and it makes sense given it’s a late developing position. You can’t just make it happen by giving them caps given development primarily happens with the clubs. That’s just how national teams work.

Beavers is probably very much on their level as a prospect as is Brady but they aren’t ready either.

In my opinion Freese is the best potential MLS option. Along with hoping Turner gets a move. And then you have the guys like Schulte, Celentano, or Callander. We haven’t really given any of the MLS guys a real opportunity as it is.

The thing with youth prospects that makes them so attractive is they haven’t played enough for us to pick them apart like the veterans. That doesn’t mean throwing them in before they are ready is really going to work out.

I don’t have a problem in calling one of the young guys as a third or fourth keeper but Barca B doesn’t stop for international windows and neither does League One I believe. So by calling them you’re taking away from their development at their respective clubs.

If Slonina establishes himself as a good player in the Championship next year he should definitely get looks. Similarly if Kochen can establish himself with regular minutes somewhere at a higher level than the Spanish third division. But calling them now is just calling them for the sake of it. Not because they deserve it or because it’s likely they’ll be ready in time for the 2026.

Turner is not an ideal option but it’s also not as if he was the issue at either the last World Cup or Copa America. We have no choice to role with him till someone beats him out. I think Freese is capable but I’m pretty open to any of those the guys playing well at the MLS level or higher getting looks.

 

have you seen him play this year and exactly which matches has he sucked? I have seen him v LAFC early in the season and in Leagues Cup and he seems to be in great form in at least those matches.

 

Steffen hasn't been consistently good with club since '17-'18 or '18-'19, it's been a bazillion years. One nice match in Leagues cup is largely irrelevant. Agreed on Steffen, as I mentioned back in early '22, he would need to put together multiple sterling "SEASONS" together before I'd trust the goalkeeping job with him again. The injuries didn't help, and I am firmly convinced he was never as good as I thought he was either, I think he was a classic case of vividness bias. Made some just flat out absurd saves here and there '15-'19, and had a great record for a while on penalties, that made him seem better than he ever was.

 

That's why the America keeper was crying as he lost. Definitely didn't care. And why the fanbase is in every game thread claiming the refs are bribed.

MLS teams go into CCC in pre-season and early season and LigaMX are in mid-season and hten in playoff form. MLS teams tend to do pretty well at home and get beat on the road. LigaMX on;y sends their top 6 teams to CCC, which includes their mega teams.

In Leagues Cup, LigaMX is in early season and MLS mid-season. MLS does have an edge in that they are home most of the time, but this year teams like America still lost to Colorado in a stadium in Southern California full of America fans. Still on the road. And LigaMX does worse because they have to send everyone; it's not just Monterey and Tigres and America.

Neither tournament set up is all that equal for anyone because of the timing. And even the home and away is not unfair but rather slanted -- the LigaMX teams even have a ridiculous home field advantage because half the top teams play at altitude (and Columbus got food poisoning or they almost certainly win last year).

LigaMX tried this year and got waxed. It happens. But it's not because they didn't try -- frankly, the payout to the players alone is far higher than CCC and enough to make them care. It's because they send more teams who aren't as good, and because their season has barely started, and yes, because they are on the road.

But also because MLS has gotten a lot better.

At some point they will need to solve the conundrum of making it more fair but also still having American and Chivas and Monterey play in America, because that's the point. The top Mexican teams all played in stadiums that were full of their fans and were an away game for their opponents, but they were still staying in hotels, etc.

It might just be that playing away in Mexico is a much bigger disadvantage given the altitude and other considerations. That any gap that is perceived might be washed out by neutral sites -- it's just easier to stay in a five star hotel and play in front of an MLS crowd than at 8,000 feet in front of a LigaMX crowd.

And let's not get into how many penalties LigaMX teams get in the final moments, just like the national team.

Steffen can prove he's worthy of a call-up by outperforming other MLS keepers in more than one game. He's not there, and I doubt he ever gets there. But the opportunity and criteria are clear.

 

This is a recurring theme with Horvath -- lack of concentration. I do not see a place for him on the National Team.

 

I’m with you man.
I hope there’s some foresight here with Gaga, I think he’s the guy to push forward.
Yes he’s in League One, but he’s their starter so if he’s healthy he’ll get all the minutes he needs. If he does well, he’ll move up a league or two and play another season before the WC.
Integrate him now. Worst case scenario, he struggles both club and country, doesn’t get the right move and now you’re a year out and starting over. That’s bad, but there aren’t great alternatives.
For me, I don’t think Turner is gonna be it. So where then?

 

Gaga has the best season produced between Schulte, and Brady and Gaga, I believe Schulte has the 2nd best, last year, and then Gaga and Brady have two of the next 3 best performances season long.

I haven't dug into Freese enough, but I know he's been very good this year, maybe someone will post on his career stats before I look him up.

On the rest, we're just philosophically not remotely close.

I want to cede:

#1 I don't have any belief whatsoever its even possible they'll do what I want. I don't think they're turning the page, period. This, like you see it, will be viewed as crazy, especially considering the psyche and ups and downs of keepers, how important reps are and everything.

I totally get the arguments for why we shouldn't do my radical suggestion, it's based on decades of GK development and training.

The reason I have such a seemingly innane view on the position is because of how bad the veteran starters actually are. The four guys we've given the bulk of the caps to the last 7 years all suck, demonstrably, at this point other than Turner, and Turner according to any metric you'd use, has not been good enough to hold a starting gig since '21-'22. Part of this is where he moved, but since he moved to Arsenal, he hasn't been a sound goalkeeper at the club level anyway.

So we have zero options unless we believe Turner can still produce at the more or less "average" level of play we saw in 2021, and 2022 for the national team (he was solid, and fantastic at times against the Netherlands, but overall, just solid, not really touching his form from the previous decade through summer '21 (even in WCQ).

So what do you do? Just sit tight with ---- goalies and hope for the best? I'm just not okay with that. I don't believe any of these guys are good enough, period, or even close to it. I was open to the idea of Turner coming back in September if he took aggressive action to remedy his club situation but he hasn't (so far). W/that knowledge in tow, I'd probably take Freese, Gaga, and Kochen if it was me, failing that, switch Kochen with Schulte or Brady.

Again, I don't expect them to do that, but I find the idea of rolling around with the same old options ridiculous and absurd, and I'm not really entranced by the idea of going with the hot young thing in Freese and considering that aggressive option: dude has 1 season as a starter, he's no better in experience than Gaga or Brady or Schulte.

I'll take minor solace in the sense that we have a decent chance of seeing one of our young prospects called in, probably Schulte or Gaga, but I think it would be a mistake. The situation is dire, and acting calmly with a sort of sedate, conservativism just doesn't cut it to me. All the vets suck from what we've seen. We don't have much time. I don't think we can afford to keep giving windows to goalies who shouldn't be at the WC.

Callendar and Celentano are the open questions to me. What should we do about them. Do we have any sense of whether they're good or not? They're sitting in the top 10 of PSxG+-, but they were horrible last season in that stat so I don't know what to think of it. I'd be willing to roll the dice w/one of them, and Freese and say Gaga, maybe, but yeah, my preference remains going with Gaga, Kochen, and Schulte, Freese, Celentano or Callender or Turner. Pick one. Turner, unless he gets a move, is odd man out for me. I don't care that he's had the gig for the past 2+ years. He had to maintain national team form to justify plainly regardless of club status and he hasn't. He's given up some stupid goals, and gotten ever worse given time. So I wouldn't bring him in.

I'm very curious what Poch will do, because none of these options has earned the right to anything w/their play, in the shirt, or with club, period.