US v. Honduras: Post Game Analysis

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by uniteo, Jan 23, 2010.

  1. SAMBA

    SAMBA Member

    Sep 3, 2004
    New Jersey
    Exactly.

    Do we always need to look to Euro leagues as the measuring stick for US players?

    I dont think so....
     
  2. dwsmith1972

    dwsmith1972 BigSoccer Supporter

    May 11, 2007
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sure, SCB. He was talking about this Honduras team vs. this US team. That much is clear from the thread name. But in this ongoing threadwide discussion there has been criticism levied by SFS and many others that is historical in nature; there have been comparisons of teams, players, camp cupcakes and rosters and coaches across years, all in a discussion centered around last Saturday night’s game and much of which is critical of Bob and MLS. Now it might be clear to you which players he was talking about and at which points in their careers. But that involves assumptions and inferences on your part. And based on the totality of the comments SFS made [many of which were historical in nature], I was not prepared to make such assumptions or draw such inferences and was therefore left to go off of the actual words he used (which IMHO, is the approach that best lends itself to clear and unbiased discussion).
     
  3. Dignan

    Dignan Member+

    Nov 29, 1999
    Granada
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bradley could win the World Cup and the detractors would say he got lucky. They just find a way to ignore the obvious.

    He's the national team coach. Is he perfect? No. Should we criticize some of his decisions? Sure. But, lets get behind him for the World Cup, instead of calling him out repeatedly so when things go badly we can feel smug and say "look what I posted on Bigsoccer."

    The vast majority of the criticism against Bradley now borders on the ludicrous on the one hand and the paranoid on the other.

    As if he couldn't coach a 10 man squad made up of 3rd and 4th string players who mostly have just a few caps to their names who haven't played a competitive match in almost four months to a resounding victory against a pretty good Honduras squad is grounds for some kind of wide critique for how we are going to do in South Africa.

    I want every Bradley detractor to right now write out what results you will take as proof that Bradley actually is a good coach and can get the job done. I really want to see it, so then we can hold people accountable and to intellectual honesty. What will it take? A round of 16? Round of 8? Semifinals apperance? Finals appearance? What will it take?
     
  4. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    No, not here in this threat. You will see a moderator pulling out automatic weapons.
     
  5. soccertom

    soccertom New Member

    Jun 2, 1999
    Absolutely correct. Brad Davis is by far the most accurate free kick striker in the National Team pool and has been for quite a number of years. No doubt that Landon is the best overall US Player and Dempsey may be the second most valuable field player but in terms of striking a dead ball both of them are way behind Davis.
     
  6. shooter6065

    shooter6065 BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Nov 16, 2000
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    I have not seen improvement out of Wynne or Rogers at all. Wynne, despite several pro seasons under his belt, still can't cross a lick and his positioning has not improved. Rogers appears to have flatlined. Adu has no club career to speak of. Altidore, probably the most promising of the bunch, has real shortcomings but he would be the only one that I see that can take his game to the next level. The next couple years are crucial for him and wherever he goes he has to play a lot.
     
  7. Raidernetcrew

    Raidernetcrew New Member

    Dec 27, 2009
    Otego
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Dont judge Rogers by the Honduras game. He didnt really have a chance to shine when he was reslotted into the left back and then center back positions.
     
  8. shooter6065

    shooter6065 BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Nov 16, 2000
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    He is a decent MLS player. No more. No less. I know he dropped back but his aimless passing is what caught my attention. Rogers is one player that could be called on in June if we have enough injuries and I don't believe he has the goods to take on anyone but MLS-level opponents.
     
  9. Raidernetcrew

    Raidernetcrew New Member

    Dec 27, 2009
    Otego
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Dont think I'm backing him cause I'm a Crew fan. He pissed me off enough last year, but he apparently had a smoking camp so I was excited for him to play against Honduras. Conrad's ejection screwed that up for him so I'd like to see him get a mulligan before June. He may not make the squad for South Africa but he is only 21-22 so he could make the 2014 team.
     
  10. SeaOtter

    SeaOtter Member

    Nov 7, 2006
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I like Rogers, but I have a hard time believing he has the smarts to beat WC calibre fullbacks down the touchline. He draws from the same well too often IMO, kicking it forward and trying to outrun folks. He has a nice shot from distance, but negates it by giving the ball away too often.....for me. I like Bornstein's game more and more, but Robbie's game puts a little too much pressure on JB for my taste.

    Also, is it just me or does RR seem to come off with more success on the right? The games I remember, in a good way, for the Nats he's been doing his damage on the right.
     
  11. shooter6065

    shooter6065 BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Nov 16, 2000
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    He has always seemed better to me on the right but of course on Saturday he was forced into a different role.
     
  12. pastor

    pastor Member+

    Jul 1, 2009
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Funny you say that. If his 40 yard shot had scored and Marshall had scored off his corner who would have been the hero.

    Tough judging a man when he is playing two positions (LB and LM) at the same time.

    Lets see what happens against El Salvador.

    Recall Rogers is not being looked at as a 90 minute player. He would be a sub brought in to tear into a tired team (like against Costa Rica). I have not seen any other player yet that fills that role as well. Also, his ability to play leftmid, right mid and even a back position in a crunch gives the kid an edge.
     
  13. luftmensch

    luftmensch Member+

    .
    United States
    May 4, 2006
    Petaluma
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Blog pimp.
     
  14. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    I'm still on the Robbie bus.

    The one I'm getting tired of is Kyle.

    As for Wynne, Conrad, Sacha & Cunningham, I think it's time to say good-bye.
     
  15. Artesian

    Artesian New Member

    Nov 8, 2008
    The Evergreen State
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    *Spoken to the highlighted segment: Bull crap.
     
  16. gmonn

    gmonn Member+

    Dec 8, 2005
    I don't know, that's probably at least 90% true. After 16 the gains in something like touch are going to be small and hard earned, considering you've probably been working at it for at least ten years already by then.
     
  17. HouseHead78

    HouseHead78 Member+

    Oct 17, 2006
    Austin, TX
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Then why does a U17 match look so sloppy compared to a full professional match? It's not just passing angles and decision-making. The players aren't as composed on the ball and their touch isn't as good.
     
  18. minya

    minya Member

    Mar 27, 2008
    san diego, ca
    Goes both ways, isn't it?
     
  19. HouseHead78

    HouseHead78 Member+

    Oct 17, 2006
    Austin, TX
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes it "is goes both ways"

    But we've had 3 competitions that have mattered under Bob Bradley:

    (1) Gold Cup 2007 - Champs
    (2) WCQ 2010 - Champs
    (3) Confed Cup - Runners Up in a very strong field.

    I think these results are quality and I'm proud of them as a US fan. And I'm proud of the coach and players that earned them for us, whatever happens in SA.

    But if you want to count B-team friendlies and throwaway tournaments meant to judge the bottom of the pool, and use those as your measuring stick for our coach, have fun with that. I'm glad I don't share your miserable perspective of the world.

    Further, if you want to pretend that there's a ton of "love" for Bradley and we're all "fanboys," then you have badly misinterpreted the tone of most of the posters here. And you sound like a whiny high schooler grasping at straw(men)s.
     
  20. oldguyfc

    oldguyfc New Member

    Sep 26, 2006
    Chicago
    Here's the true issue with this side of the argument - it, obviously, isn't Bradley who's the key figure here - it's the players.
    His inability to provide continuity to whatever style to which he professes to adhere only works when he has the best players available; when he's stuck with a "B" team - there is absolutely no continuity to his teams.
    Some might say, again, that isn't his fault, and it's a fact of nature that we have a shallow player pool; I vehemently disagree with this; and no game, I don't care if it's a 6 v 6 played on the training pitch, is meaningless - and anyone whom has ever been involved in the game at any competitive level knows this. Players don't look at this the same way some observers do here - they don't say after the game "well, this game didn't mean anything to me, it was a glorified scrimmage, I don't really care if we lost or not". If there's a coach that thinks that way, he's an idiot, plain and simple.
     
  21. Oceans of time

    Jun 26, 2007
    Chicago
    Yes but there was something else going on there. I like Bob B (the temple veins make people try harder in the hopes Bob' s temporal lobe won't come blowing out of his scull...but I digress) but every time he uses Wynne he seems like he wants to prove Wynne is the next Beckenbaur by running end to end all game. When did Wynne start playing soccer anyway? 6? He looks like someone who caught the soccer bug later in life. I like the cache his name brings to U.S. Soccer, though. His name-it's got cache up the yin yang, baby!
     
  22. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    You're stretching it.

    And, btw, Guevara's career MLS stats were heavily padded by the PK's he took for the old Metrostars. When he moved to LA, his defensive effort (and personality) was not good enough for Preki and caused Amado to miss about a year and a half of MLS play.

    Visavis Honduras, their Euro based players like Wilson Palacios, Maynor Figueroa, Rambo de Leon and Carlos Costly were obviously the stars of the squad. The home based players pitched in in the overall effort but there's a reason why some of their team members are raking in big bucks in Europe and why others are not even getting sniffs from MLS.

    And I brought up their most recent Peru and Latvia friendlies - with their full A-list squads - to show that they're a very ordinary squad even with their big guns in place.

    That's cherry picking.

    Games with A and A/B and A/B/C rosters matter just as much for the evaluation of coaching staffs.

    Heck, Coco Basile resigned last week after losing a friendly to River Plate.

    To say that an official FIFA tournament was irrelevant to the coaching analysis because of a sub-optimal roster selection is absurd, especially when other teams were also playing with suboptimal line-ups.

    Finally, the quoted logic completely excludes the analysis of individual games and individual coaching decisions. It implies that everything in the Confederations Cup and the Gold Cup was the result of Bradley's brilliant coaching acumen while everything in weaker performances was the result of the inferior players.

    And this turns into - "Win because of Bob, lose because of the players at his disposal".

    If that's your stance, there's not much to discuss.
     
  23. braun

    braun Red Card

    Feb 22, 2001
    metro Boston
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But it doesn't mean that a foreign, crafty coach will be able to extract the maximum from the players that represent the USMNT.

    With Davies, Gooch and Dempsey all looking possible for a start vs England, whether they are 100% in June, makes me think that the roster of players indeed will be competitive for the World Cup.
     
  24. uiriamu

    uiriamu Member

    Mar 16, 2005
    Philly, (NC)
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I am sick of people bitching about a friendly RESULT. Don't most MNT followers want the coach to focus on player identification and evaluation in these cases rather than results? This does NOT mean that it's only okay to lose to teams that are obviously favored to win, like England, Argentina and Spain. And it doesn't mean that it's okay that we lose as long as we still look just as pretty and organized as we would be if we were going for the win.

    The thing is, if we accept that friendly results aren't priority #1, and that in some cases, it is perfectly acceptable to lose, then we have to be ready to watch team performances in friendlies that are suboptimal and yes, even ugly - performances that are very unlikely to gain us the result.

    It's easy to say "results don't matter; we're all about player evaluation" when the coach is still doing everything he would be doing to achieve a win. The coach with balls is going to pursue his objectives despite the fact that it might endanger the result.

    I happen to think BB has balls. I think Bradley often makes decisions that are less safe because he really believes that it's important to experiment in friendlies instead of pursuing short-term goals, like winning friendlies against teams we've already beaten the previous four times in more meaningful contests.

    Bob COULD have played it safe and done exactly what everyone expected he would do, which is to give up on what he hoped to evaluate, shore up the D, and maximize the team's chances for a result, but he didn't, at least for the 25 minutes that remained in the first half. I think that's actually a GOOD thing, because it means he actually understands that results in bullshit friendlies like Saturday really do mean f**k all.

    If posters think he could have maximized player evaluation by using different in-game tactics and adjustments, then I'm glad to hear it. But if posters are bitching because they don't like that we lost to a team in a friendly when we should "expect" to beat them, then I think they're being short-sighted about what is important to our team's success.
     
  25. gkleiban

    gkleiban New Member

    Jan 3, 2010
    Brea
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    That's just silly. Did you watch the U-17 WC?
    It's all about proper spacing and yes, decision making before and when receiving the ball.

    You want to see slop? Just look at our very own NT. I'd find you very hard-pressed to find a 10 touch sequence. Why? Because of horrific decision making.
     

Share This Page