US v. Honduras: Post Game Analysis

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by uniteo, Jan 23, 2010.

  1. Grumpy in LA

    Grumpy in LA Bringing It Since 1807™

    Sep 10, 2007
    Chicago
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As others have pointed out, the simple answer is that it wasn't a FIFA date, which meant Bradley could only call in a very limited set of guys.

    And even if he could have called in some guys who might be more interesting options, it still would have been a bad idea. Some of them (e.g. Beasley and Cooper) are still recovering from injuries. Some of them (e.g., Edu, Adu, and Johnson) are settling into new teams or just getting back in the mix after injuries. Adu's only chance to put himself into contention for South Africa is to start playing regularly and well for Aris. So far he hasn't made it off the bench yet, but it looks more plausible that he will with Aris than with his last couple teams. Coming to Carson for a B-team friendly is way less important than convincing Cuper that he deserves time on the field.

    I still think this friendly was useful (it would have been far more useful 11 v. 11), but it was only ever going to be useful in a limited way.

    And it should have been cheaper to attend. Hell, the way it played out, they should have paid me to watch.
     
  2. dwsmith1972

    dwsmith1972 BigSoccer Supporter

    May 11, 2007
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I am not sure what year you are referring to [perhaps he was average in his post NY years, but despite being a bit of a head case, Amado Guevara was among the best players in MLS during his prime and was the league MVP. As a metro/redbull fan I can tell you that his years under Bradley he was quite good. In fact the only thing I think kept him from flourishing in Europe [at Valladolid] is the fact that he is a head case. But an average midfielder he was/is not.
     
  3. Onionsack

    Onionsack BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 21, 2003
    New York City
    Club:
    FC Girondins de Bordeaux
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why are people wasting their time analyzing this match? It was such a meaningless game I can't believe anyone is actually taking the time to hangwring over the result and performances. The match was barely a notch above a scrimmage with players that are just training camp fodder with no legitimate chance of featuring in SA under present circumstances.


    I have it on Tivo since Sautrday night and still haven't felt compelled to watch the match. It just isn't a match that matters for shit. Calm down worry warts and save your rage and fear for the Holland game when we play with a legitimate squad against a top side in Europe.
     
  4. QuakeAttack

    QuakeAttack Member+

    Apr 10, 2002
    California - Bay Area
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Taken in the context that the US Players have been out of season and are just getting back into training, I'm not losing sleep over the result. However, even if it's the F Team, I expect a little more effort and continuity between players. Does anyone know how to show for the ball?

    Mentally, the team wasn't ready to play. They come out slow, unprepared, and clearly unmovited. BB has to take some responsibility, but utlimately, the players will pay. I think some people are a little baffled because a few of the players are potential bubble players. Every practice and game should mean something. Dam, you are playing for the US. It would have helped if someone could have channelled Heydude.

    I was very disappointed in the play of Marshall and the midfield (except for Benny who didn't play great, but we have seen enough to no worry about him). Thanks to Conrad, I wasted two hours of my life.
     
  5. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Well, a friendly used to gauge a team is pretty much useless if it becomes a 10 vs. 11 competition.

    I wouldn't dismiss this match so readily, though. It's not like the USA has 11 world class players in the first team.

    A dip in form by Clark, by Donovan, Deuce not being back in time... really, BB needed to see good second string players who could play even in adverse conditions.

    After the first 6 or 7 players, there is a drop in quality. After the next 7 or so, there is yet another drop, and that second drop seems to be so bad that it means the depth of the pool doesn't even get to 23.
     
  6. QuakeAttack

    QuakeAttack Member+

    Apr 10, 2002
    California - Bay Area
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    While you are correct about not dismissing this game, you aren't correct about the US depth. At most, there are only 2-3 players who may make the team (Perkins, Feilhaber, and Bornstein). The US depth has improved dramatically in the last eight years. The biggest problem is that we haven't been developing world class players.
     
  7. deuteronomy

    deuteronomy Member+

    Angkor Siem Reap FC
    United States
    Aug 12, 2008
    at the pitch
    Club:
    Siem Reap Angkor FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Please . . . . This is the kind of logic you start with and build some weird theories that get you so far down the road that spelunkers can't even get you out.

    Frankie actually made some WC squads, started some matches, got a contract in Germany, played some over there, came home and won a couple of MLS cups.

    I'm not sure what you see in Marvell, in the pregame thread the 14 year olds wanted a look at him (running) again. Now, to be certain, Marvell is fast, however, simple give and goes still make a fool of him, he forgets whom he is marking and he has been caught out of position more frequently than Tiger Woods.:rolleyes:

    Marv ain't going nowhere this summer. Pete would tell you the Olympics aren't a good measure of a man's sport

    As far as his attacking ability goes, who were the other options at right back?

    ps: nice to see you back, here.;)
     
  8. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Let's try to do a quick summary:

    Near World Class:

    - Howard
    - Dempsey
    - Donovan

    Good Enough for WC:

    - Bradley
    - Gooch
    - Spector
    - Cherundolo
    - Bocanegra

    Maybe Good Enough:

    - Clark
    - Bornstein
    - Feilhaber
    - Altidore
    - DeMerit
    - Guzan(?)
    - Hahnemann(?)
    - Holden(?)

    Wouldn't Make it in a Top 20 NT:

    - Edu
    - Marshall
    - Goodson
    - Perkins
    - Pearce
    - Torres

    We're Scrapping the Bottom Already:

    - Parkhurst
    - Ching
    - Casey
    - Cooper
    - Beasley
    - B. Davis

    Are You Nuts?:

    - Conrad
    - Kljestan
    - Wynne
    - Quaranta
    - Arnaud
    - Califf
    - Adu
    - EJ
    - Pause
    - Cronin
    - Clark
    - Evans
    - Beckerman
    - Gaven
    - Robles

    With Pontius, Tracey, Braun, Findley, Castillo, Cameron, Larentowicz, Brandon, Gonzalez, Alston, Bedoya, Dax and Rimando to have a chance to prove something, so far it seems there are only about 16 at most who are good enough to take.

    Bob is trying to find the other seven, but he's very close to scrapping the bottom to find them.
     
  9. Dignan

    Dignan Member+

    Nov 29, 1999
    Granada
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Because it is not a FIFA date and the only guys avaible are the MLS and Scandanavian guy who are in offseason.
     
  10. Dignan

    Dignan Member+

    Nov 29, 1999
    Granada
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This!
     
  11. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And I don't blame Feilhaber and Kljestan. Beckerman tried to force passes that weren't there. The problem wasn't with the central midfield, it was the fact that everyone else was standing around and giving them no one to pass to.

    Also, this is what I mean by the problem not being MLS. This isn't about player talent, it's spacing and communication. 19 days is plenty of time to get any group of players organized. Arena could probably get a better showing out of a NCAA all-star team.
     
  12. uksailmaker

    uksailmaker New Member

    Apr 5, 2006
    Too young and inexperienced for 2010 but

    I think Dax McCarty was the most productive player in his 20 minutes. He hold possession and moves the ball quicker than any player we have. He also had a lot to do with the amount of goals scored by Cunningham at Dallas.

    I think he will be in the 24 going in 2014.

    In the US we get so hung up on the athletes from youth to NATS. We would be better served to have more McCarty type and less Marvelle Wynne type.

    Does McCarty remind anybody of the guy who played in Holland and was always hurt.??

    What was his name.??? I thought he was our best player when healthy back in 2002 or whatever year it was.
     
  13. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    2010 ain't 2004.

    Guevara is almost 34 now.

    He ain't what he used to be.

    I don't mean he was a bad MLS player over his last two years but 9 goals over ~ 45 matches for an offensive player without a solid defensive work rate is so-so.

    And that's the best Honduras had.

    On the US side, Bob had Cunningham with 17 goals, Findley with 12, Casey with 16. Compare this with a 36-year old Carlos Pavon who had scored all of 3 for the LA Galaxy when he was almost two years younger.

    I know MLS isn't the end-all-be-all type of a league but Pavon isn't dominating in the Honduran league either.

    Just comparing rosters, this should have been an easy win.

    So what?

    Even if he were one of the last options for Arena in WC'2006, his best days were long behind him then, when he was already 31.

    He had earned whatever reputation he did have in 1996-2002. After that, it was all downhill.

    Yes.

    Am I arguing this? No.

    But, for some reasons, everyone forgets his Olympics performance when his forays forward were as spectacular as anyone's ever had in the US uniform.

    He is not a well-rounded player. Neither is Randy Moss.

    Still, as Bill Walsh used to say, you keep players for what they can do for you, not discard them for what they can't and Marvell can do a lot of things.

    He did it for Nowak.

    He had not done it for Bradley.

    I am not signing him up to a humongous free-agent contract.

    All I am saying is, if you got Marvell, use his strengths and cover his weaknesses.

    Bob has done neither. Peter, by and large, did both.

    What a welcome back, huh, C?

    It's as if I never left.
     
  14. SAMBA

    SAMBA Member

    Sep 3, 2004
    New Jersey
    Ah, so there it is. I missed the obvious.

    Anyway, I agree with the sentiment above on not taking the game so seriously. Still I wouldn't have used the word "meaningless".

    After all, we do have players hurt and we do need to look at others.
     
  15. lynne

    lynne Member+

    Oct 11, 2003
    Maybe this has already been asked and answered, but....why don't we call up the U20 players, the U18 players, the U23 players to this instead the the older players who we already know?

    Plus, for all those people who complain that US fans don't go see the USNT....how much did it cost to go to that game? How much were the seats, the parking, the food? For all of pontificating about what BB may or may not have learned from that game, imagine how the people who paid to watch that debacle must have felt.

    The coach should be responsible for putting out a reasonably competent looking team that looks like they have a chance to succeed. Didn't happen in this game.
     
  16. shooter6065

    shooter6065 BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Nov 16, 2000
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    This is a continuing problem on the USMNT boards. It is always "wait till X fully develops" even though you really are not seeing incremental improvements to point that way.

    The case study of this was Eddie Johnson. We had guys on these boards pounding the table for Eddie Johnson who, in my estimation, has not improved one bit since maybe 2005 or so. In other words, he peaked at age 19 or 20 which is not unusual and never moved beyond being a one-dimensional speed merchant.

    But I see it happening on these boards with one player followed by another now. Rogers, Wynne, Adu and maybe Altidore might not get any better than they are right now. Just the way it works folks.


    Of course, the explanation for not improving is always "oh, he is still young". In Europe, if you are not cracking the first team at age 21 you better start looking for a new career. In the United States, I have seen people clamor for guys way into their 20's to get into the national team who are not very good and have not improved in years. I have argued with people on here who thought age 25 was young. Uh, no, its not. Not in soccer.
     
  17. Mr Martin

    Mr Martin Member+

    Jun 12, 2002
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't see any reason to belittle that Honduras team. Honduras fielded 6 starters on Saturday who also started the crucial 1-0 WC clinching victory at El Salvador, a win they had to have to make the World Cup. E. Izaguirre, M. Sabillon, E. Norales, J. Palacios, C. Pavon, and A. Guevara all started the must-win final WC Qualifier.

    That's half their A-squad.

    The US started 1 player (Bornstein) who started the US's WC clinching Qualifier. If you consider the US XI that beat Spain as our true A-team, none of those guys started on Saturday.

    It is very simple. The US was testing borderline guys who may fill in the last few spots on the World Cup team. They played poorly, which means that the US's B/C players are not particularly good, especially playing 10 v 11 against half of Honduras' A-team.
     
  18. deuteronomy

    deuteronomy Member+

    Angkor Siem Reap FC
    United States
    Aug 12, 2008
    at the pitch
    Club:
    Siem Reap Angkor FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Mr. Martin, . . . . . please . . . . be reasonable.

    This is Big Soccer . . . . .

    Logic goes out the window . . . .
    :cool:;)
     
  19. gkleiban

    gkleiban New Member

    Jan 3, 2010
    Brea
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
  20. dwsmith1972

    dwsmith1972 BigSoccer Supporter

    May 11, 2007
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But that is not what you said. You said Originally Posted by sidefootsitter
    But even their top players like Avado Guevara was an average MLS midfielder for an average team and Carlos Pavon outright washed out in the league.

    You made no indication you were referring to Amado Guevara now as a player. You implied that at his best he was an average MLS player.
     
  21. Martin Fischer

    Martin Fischer Member+

    Feb 23, 1999
    Kampala. Uganda
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  22. oldguyfc

    oldguyfc New Member

    Sep 26, 2006
    Chicago
    You're just a faster reader than I am.

    I have no doubt that, somewhere in the universe there are valid arguments to both sides of the "she loves me, she loves me not" - needless to say, we aren't in that reality.
    The Hatfield-McCoy feud between those that do and those that don't like Bradley will be resolved this summer; but even then, I have a feeling no one is going to budge anyway.
     
  23. SeaOtter

    SeaOtter Member

    Nov 7, 2006
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Damn Bradley luvin' Hatfields! I'm agin 'em.
     
  24. SCBozeman

    SCBozeman Member

    Jun 3, 2001
    St. Louis
    I wish. Instead, I would wager it'll be a split between Bradley debates and debates about players that the USMNT boards love -- Dempsey as cagey brilliance vs. lazy bastard, Donovan as explosive game changer vs. weak dispappearing act, Altidore as man-child w/touch vs. Kenny Cooper's younger brother.

    You mean like Clint Dempsey and Brian McBride?
     
  25. SCBozeman

    SCBozeman Member

    Jun 3, 2001
    St. Louis
    Of course he was. He was talking about this Honduras team vs. this US team: this Honduras team, albeit not the cream of their crop, shouldn't have so easily beat a US team made up of our best MLS and Scandihoovian players.

    You can bicker about whether recent MLS play is a good barometer, whether Guevara was a good player in this match, whether Honduras cup run-up created better cohesion and whether the US's bad play is a reflection of crap coaching and strategy, but it's clear SFS wasn't talking about Guevara and Pavon of old.
     

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