US v. Honduras: Post Game Analysis

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by uniteo, Jan 23, 2010.

  1. SeaOtter

    SeaOtter Member

    Nov 7, 2006
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hmmm...my television feed must've been censored. I didn't see Adu playing. I was speaking about the players who qualified for this particular discussion.

    And since you brought him up, when Freddy has solidified his starting position at Aris (if he can't start there, he doesn't need to be in any conversation relating to the WC), then lets begin discussing him.

    As for Rogers, he needs to smarten up.
     
  2. ChrisSSBB

    ChrisSSBB Member+

    Jun 22, 2005
    DE
    Nat'l Team:
    United States



    I couldn't get past this in above. I only wish Marvell was somewhere close to Hejduk when going forward. And I say that fully understanding Frankie's awkwardness and limitations. Wynne doing well in a U-23 tournament is not suprising. Youth tournaments are where players that are elite in one area but not complete in others can still shine. Moving up to the next level tends to expose a lot of warts.


    Wynne showing good and some very bad against Honduras was not unexpected. There isn't much BB can do with Marvell at this point to help him receive the ball in less than three touches and in the proper space, deliver the ball sooner, react to a situation a split second sooner or, just plain have better footwork. At least not in the course of a month. Maybe it looks a bit better in training but carrying it over into a match is another thing. I'm not anti-Marvell and in some ways he played better than I expected against Honduras and may come good to some extent - later. But, come on - he is a project and about as raw as they come.
     
  3. TabLalas

    TabLalas Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    Jersey
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm gonna be positive here for a bit; one guy that really looks like he's growing as a player to me is Bornstein, I was not a big fan at all of him pre-2008 but when I've gone back and rewatched games the guy is REALLY coming along and I have to say, I'm very comfortable with Bornstein at LB in South Africa. He's always had nice speed and liked getting up into the soup on the offensive side but he's really playing smarter as a defender as well.
    Has anyone else seen this kind of growth in Bornstein's game besides me?
     
  4. dwsmith1972

    dwsmith1972 BigSoccer Supporter

    May 11, 2007
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Whether Hartman is a good GK is not really of interest to me. That you argue that Perkins is superior to him by virtue of having played in Norway whilst Hartman has toiled away in MLS is of some interest. I do not pretend to be an expert at the relative rankings of world leagues. But the Norwegian league is the 18th or 19th rated UEFA league. That Perkins was a fan favorite there indicates he is better than Hartman? Really? Norway?
     
  5. SCBozeman

    SCBozeman Member

    Jun 3, 2001
    St. Louis
    Many Americans believe it isn't for this reason, among a few other similar ones.

    I don't want to speak for SFS, but I think you're missing the point. The point is that Inter, playing a man down, didn't look fragile and, in fact, scored against a highly motivated team that's nearly equally to it in terms of talent (#1 vs. #2 in Serie A).

    SFS might argue that Mourinho is a superior coach to both Leonardo and Bradley, though Leonardo has more playing experience and I would assume better assistants than Mike Sorber. Whether Bradley ever dropped Tab Ramos, I cannot say.
     
  6. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Peru didn't play with any of their Europe based players (Farfan from Schalke, Guerrero from Hamburg, Pizarro from Bremen, Acasiete from Almeria, Zambrano from Schalke, Vargas from Fiorentina, Rodriguez from Braga, de la Haza from Beitar Jerusalem, etc.) except for Rengifo (from Lech Poznan back then).

    Honduras was the A-team, with all the "European" players that didn't play against the USA: Bernardez (Anderlecht), Wilson Palacios (Spurs), Thomas (Wigan), Costly (Vaslui) and Suazo (back then in Inter) played against Peru. They were missing only Alvarez (Bari), de Leon (Torino) and Figueroa (Wigan).

    http://www.soccerway.com/matches/2009/11/19/world/friendly/honduras/peru/880360/

    It's really bad for the USMNT team (even if it's the B- team) to lose to a second string Honduran team. They all were nationals, who play in the Honduran championship: their Apertura tournament had ended at the same time the MSL had ended so using the "MSL players were out of form" excuse doesn't work here.
     
  7. bct81

    bct81 Member+

    Mar 17, 2007
    Mass (formerly northern Virginia/Colorado)
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    unfortunately if you have not developed the "touch" by the time you are 14 to 16 ... it will never happen. Tactical awareness can be learned and a true student of the game will spend time with game films etc. to pick up what they do not know ... but the eye foot coordination and mechanics is a different ball of wax. I think Marvell is wonderfully athletic ... but I don't think that he developed the technical ability to match up with his speed at a young age. ... if he had he might be with Arsenal now instead of the MLS.
     
  8. TabLalas

    TabLalas Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    Jersey
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There are alot of matches that deserve to be thrown in the "scrap heap" but I don't think this is one of them and these guys are deserving of most of the criticism that they're receiving, here.
    There was absolutely no cohesion or connecting of passes when they moved forward into Honduras' side of the field, and I feel that the midfield deserves the brunt of the blame here, guys like Feilheiber, Rogers and Kjlestian should've been better. I won't critique Beckerman because it'd be a waste of time, he just plain sucks.
     
  9. dwsmith1972

    dwsmith1972 BigSoccer Supporter

    May 11, 2007
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I guess I am not all that worked up about the loss. I don’t think it is a harbinger of bad things to come. But if, as some have said, player evaluation is more important than the result, why role out the Conrads, Bornsteins, Beckerman’s at all? Were Cameron and Gonzalez so poor in the as to not warrant a look? Why not throw McCarty and Bedoya out there for 90? And why play Findley and Cunningham together as opposed to pairing each of them for a half with a target forward [Casey]?
     
  10. jamezyjamez

    jamezyjamez Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Dallas
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    It puts the coach in a tough spot, and I would imagine you do your best to try and eliminate variables to get the best possible look at a handful of players. For example, it's hard to say Cunningham and Findley are not good enough to make the squad...they would both likely look worlds better with a Donovan-Bradley-Rico-Dempsey MF than the MF we saw in this match. When you have to play with a lineup that has been turned over so significantly AND add in a red card on top of that, I'm not sure what one can learn from this game other than some individual performances - e.g. who's a bonehead (Conrad), who likely currently lacks the individual skill to play at this level (Wynne). I dunno - it's a guess.
     
  11. SAMBA

    SAMBA Member

    Sep 3, 2004
    New Jersey
    One of the things I hate most about the lost to Mexico in the Gold cup (besides the 5 nothing punishment) was the fact that no one, absolutely no one took control for the US when things got out of control.

    After Conrads ejection you could see Bornstein really working hard to close down space and then try and join or help mount an attack. Not to take anything away from the other US players but Bornsteins up shift in work rate was obvious to me. He took control and tried to make a difference.

    He was humble in his post game comments and said "everyone worked hard after the ejection", but I didnt see it that way. I thought it was mostly him. Just because you’re running around like crazy doesn’t mean you play smart and contribute (like Marvel Wynne)

    Very mature, lots of growth on and off the field for Bornstein. Someone please make sure he borads the plane to South Africa.
     
  12. SeaOtter

    SeaOtter Member

    Nov 7, 2006
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The point is that these two are most likely competing for the same position and roster spot. And the better of the two in Jan and Feb will be rewarded with an all expenses paid trip to The Netherlands in March.

    Gotta show you're better than the 'B' team to make the 'A' team.

    For me, Cunningham looked disinterested. Maybe that's an unfair assessment, but it's what I saw. Findley looked up for it, but as you alluded, the midfield wasn't doing much to support the attack.

    All in all, for a team that just spent three weeks preparing for this match, they sure looked a lot like a team that just spent three days preparing for it.
     
  13. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    Part of this speaks to how many guys MLS loses today compared to yesteryear. We could have run out a team almost entirely built with guys who don't start right now and play abroad that could have given this team a game (especially because they are in season). Something like:

    [LINEUP-4-4-2]
    Johnson, Cooper,
    Beasley,
    Adu, Edu,
    Holden,
    Castillo,
    Simek,
    Parkhurst,
    Orozco,
    Guzan
    [/LINEUP-4-4-2] (I know I'm fudging slightly by listing Parkhurst, who could have been called to this game but wasn't.) Certainly by mixing and matching you could produce a much better team than we had, yet one would still call it a B-team. Heck, you could add just two players that were in MLS three months ago (Holden and Clark) and get yourself a substantial upgrade.

    At this point, does even our "B-Team" play in MLS?
     
  14. TabLalas

    TabLalas Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    Jersey
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, I noticed his awareness on defense and how he was getting up on offense, as well.
    I'm really warming up to him and at this point, and hope that he sees some time at LB in South Africa over Bocanegra, who is still an important player for us but the hole is at LB and at this point, Bornstein has more to offer than Bocanegra.
     
  15. Reccossu

    Reccossu Member+

    Jan 31, 2005
    Birmingham
    What you mean is you want both, right? 10 guys with better skills, but worse altheticism might get beat just as badly -- they might look nicer doing it I guess.
     
  16. Reccossu

    Reccossu Member+

    Jan 31, 2005
    Birmingham
    It looked like Bornstien might be getting his speed back. He used to be pretty fast, got injured, and lost a step. Has he recovered much of that speed? Was it just that he was the only one who looked like he had a clue?
     
  17. Mr Martin

    Mr Martin Member+

    Jun 12, 2002
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Absolutely. You want both.

    The US's "athletic" fast/powerful players (Wynne, Cunningham, Findley, Marshall) didn't shine vs Honduras.

    But our less athletic players (Feilhaber, Beckerman, Kljestan) also struggled. These guys don't play pro soccer because of their athletic gifts. Feilhaber is viewed as one of our most technical players.

    I don't like simplistic "answers". I do like complete players who are both skilled and athletic (Donovan, Altidore, Davies, Edu, Bradley, Dempsey, hopefully Jones...)
     
  18. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

    Feb 11, 2002
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think, based on the injuries, that he should not get further consideration, nor was that what I said upthread.

    But if I were Bob, and as I actually said, he indeed would have "hurt his standing" from what it was before that game.

    He had a stone first touch.

    He was weak on the ball and easily dispossessed.

    Never got involved in any corners or setplays aerially that I can remember ofhand.

    I did not see a lot of effective offtheball running to get open for the passes you say he never got.

    His game is supposed to be speed but it did not look that he was fast vs international defenders. Compare to Wynne, who was awful, but still looked fast.

    Did he get off a shot in 90 minutes?
     
  19. SAMBA

    SAMBA Member

    Sep 3, 2004
    New Jersey
    This is good.

    I have never been passionate about Bob Bradley either way but the players you list makes me want to question "the powers that be"...especially after the Honduras game.

    Why not give players like Adu and others on your list a good look? I dont beleive for one second it could have been any worse, possibly better.

    There has to be a simple answer(s).
     
  20. matabala

    matabala Member+

    Sep 25, 2002
    Bradley must have been playing hookey during his Remedial Soccer 101 class at Princeton
     
  21. keano16united

    keano16united New Member

    Mar 23, 2008
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    One thing that we can be sure of is that we're not sure of what Bob really wanted to get out of this friendly. I think it's really hard to truely believe your own criticisms towards Bob and everything that went on vs Honduras. We came away with 1 bright spot in Bornstein. The Gold Cup final team continued with poor play and the only 2 things that unexpectedly sucked were Feilhaber and the fact that Troy Perkins forgot how to take goal kicks again

    Now if everyones worried about the last spots on the SA 23, then let's stick to that. But I don't think we really need to be worried about that. We need to worry about our depth up to 18 and more importantly, we need to worry about Jozy and Clint. Is Robbie Findley a respectable answer, I don't know. But he needs another chance in February and doesn't need to be paired up with Cunningham.

    I think everyone has to agree that our 11 is for the most part set and they do a pretty damn good job when they're playing together. So I don't understand the negativity on this thread and the knit picky below the belt shots at our coaches decisions in a meaningless game with meaningless players.
     
  22. Heathens '87

    Heathens '87 Member

    United States
    Mar 4, 2004
    Michigan
    Club:
    RSC Anderlecht
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This camp and game were not a friendly during a FIFA window. Clubs do not have to release their players for international duty for such games. The January camp is, and has been, a camp for out of season MLS players and those players abroad who play in leagues that are in a break (such as Denmark). The line-up presented features players who are in leagues that are in-season and thus not available for this camp and game.

    In terms of camp invitations, it's hard to argue that Bob missed inviting anybody from those leagues who deserves to be considered in the pool of 40 or so players who are in contention for the 23-man WC roster. The El Salvador friendly is also not during a FIFA friendly window. The March 3 friendly against Holland is, so expect a far different roster.

    The increasing number of Americans playing abroad is beginning to make the January camp a rather pointless annual exercise as the talent available for such an extended camp is now rather deep in the player pool.......
     
  23. keano16united

    keano16united New Member

    Mar 23, 2008
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ok, just read Ives Galarceps new interview with Davies. He's going to be back for the WC and not only that, they think he'll be training with Sochaux by the end of February. He wants to start and after reading that article, I'm convinced. This just totally made my day. Unreal comeback story.
     
  24. Dr Jay

    Dr Jay BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 7, 1999
    Newton, MA USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree with the second statement but not the first.

    He got horrid service from the midfield with some rockets sent waist-level. Other than the first few, he handled them pretty well with his first touch and played back to relieve pressure effectively a couple of times.

    He usually got dispossessed on his second touch and/or his turn. Some of it was on him and some was on his teammates as it seemed he had minimal support from the midfield or his strike partner.

    I was actually impressed with his first touch, back-to-goal since I had viewed him as primarily a face-the-goal type.
     
  25. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    The point has been made before I had a chance to respond and even a better point was made by Heathens87 about the US-Italy'06 match - the US was down by a player but that didn't mean they began to play a clueless, uncoordinated game.

    The 1-down excuse may have some validity to the final score but the style of play was horrid before then.

    No. What you saw was Bob Bradley being unable to make his players better and arguably making them look worse than they'd look on their average day.

    Let's face it, with the salaries that are being paid in Honduras, all of their domestic players would be rejoicing to play in MLS.

    But even their top players like Avado Guevara was an average MLS midfielder for an average team and Carlos Pavon outright washed out in the league.

    For all measurements, an MLS All-Star caliber team, abetted with a few European based players, should have trounced them.

    But they lost and lost big and did not look good doing that.

    To me, this is split evenly between the players/MLS and the coaching, with both being quite putrid.

    You had something close to a full roster vs. Slovakia and Denmark against their A- or lower rosters.

    Once again, on the style of play and not necessarily the results, how did they look?

    Sorry but the squads the US went against at the Olympics were superior to the low-level domestic Honduras team.

    The Nigerians and the Dutch had a mix of their national teamers, ex-stars like Makaay and up-n-comers and played a very good Argentina squad very tightly.

    Wynne looked better there because the spacing was better and that was due to Peter Nowak and Lubos Kubik - he had room to advance with the ball.

    On Saturday, he got the ball and usually stopped and either passed back or toward the middle. he never got it in stride going to the corner flag.

    BTW, by 2006 - if we're comparing it to the first Camp Cupcake - Hejduk was a wash-out at St. Gallen, making his previous pedigree worthless.

    Maybe my phrasing wasn't perfect but, when Troy first got to Tippeliga, he was below mediocre, as proven by his grades.

    After half a season there, he improved tremendously and proceeded to have very good year and a half there, with some of the Norwegian YA posters believing that he'd be moving on to bigger and better things (Holland or above).

    And he left as a defending MLS GK of the Year, if I am not mistaken.

    So, yes, I believe he is a lot better than Hartman, who's a good shot stopper when he has to use his quickness but is not a very smart guy on his other forays - crossing, positioning, etc.

    PS. Thanks for the correction on the Honduras-Peru match. Honduran A-team lost to Peru's B (or lower).
     

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