us started war against japan in '41?

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by fidlerre, Aug 29, 2002.

  1. joseph pakovits

    joseph pakovits New Member

    Apr 29, 1999
    fly-over country
    What causes the rest of us to believe that there is a strong element of resistance to acknowledging Japanese war guilt is the fact that for decades official reprsentatives of Japan could not bring themselves to even give a proactive genuine, heartfelt "sorry" to anyone for what happened. They have to be hogtied into expressing the smallest iota of remorse.

    Now, the right wing cranks may be vocal and disproportionate in government over there (which begs the question of why that is) but if the majority of Japanese were really able to face the facts then why should their elected representatives be so singularly unable to do so? I mean, geez, it's been 50 freaking years! We all know what happened by now. It's not like the world is going to be shocked and amazed to learn that the Japanese did some bad, bad things in the 1930s and 40s.
     
  2. skipshady

    skipshady New Member

    Apr 26, 2001
    Orchard St, NYC
    FWIW, Koizumi has issued apologies to Japan's wartime victims that went beyond the "regret" over "unfortunate past" of past LDP leaders. There was actually a lengthy thread on the issue of war guilt in the Asia & Middle East forum pre-crash and I wish it was still around so I could refer to it.

    As to why these right wingers stay in positions of power, the simplest explanation is that the Japanese government has rarely represented the will of the people. Sure, we have free elections, but party machinery and backroom power play determine the people who run for office and opposition to the LDP has been generally inept.

    Yes, enough people support the nationalists to keep them in the Diet, but their support base is limited to rural regions, the older generation and small business. They're not exactly fringe elements in society but they're hardly mainstream either.
     
  3. Ludahai

    Ludahai New Member

    Jun 22, 2001
    Taichung, Taiwan
    You are right, the 4 is right under the 7 on the keypad and my finger slipped.

    I like the sarcasm. :)
     
  4. Ludahai

    Ludahai New Member

    Jun 22, 2001
    Taichung, Taiwan
    Are Japanese textbooks talking about the atrocities the Japanese committed yet? The Nanjing Massacre? Killing Chinese in Manchuria for economic crimes if they ate rice without authorization? The Bataan Death March? The Comfort Women? I know the Japanese have harped on the fact that they were the only country attacked with atomic weapons, but are they coming to grips with what they did yet? I haven't seen evidence of this. If they have started changing this, please let me know.
     
  5. joseph pakovits

    joseph pakovits New Member

    Apr 29, 1999
    fly-over country
    I know that VERY recently the Japanese govt has taken baby steps to acknowledge war guilt and atrocities. Of course, such admissions are almost always the result of heavy outside pressure and not any proactive soul-searching from within. At any rate, why did it take so long? I mean, really - 50 years?

    How about just giving us some highlights?

    True, but while I really really really really REALLY hate to agree with Ludahai on something, this doesn't explain the school textbook treatment of the imperial era, the war memorial honoring the war criminals, refusal until extremely recently to even acknowledge the existence of the Korean and Chinese sex slaves, etc. Even we Americans have gotten around to treaching our kids about our shameful treatment of the Indians (although if you only read the textbooks, you'd think that this stopped in 1900 rather than admitting what is still going on, casinos notwithstanding) and our textbooks have always dealt with the evils or our enslavement of Africans and, since the 1960s or so, have been pretty much open about the continuing problems with racism here. If we can do it, it's about time the Japanese also started teaching their kids about the mistakes and, let's face it, the deliberately evil actions committed in the past. Until they can do that, the rest of the world will simply roll its eyes when the Japanese harp on being the only ones to get nuked.
     
  6. Ludahai

    Ludahai New Member

    Jun 22, 2001
    Taichung, Taiwan
    There is a first time for everything.
     
  7. skipshady

    skipshady New Member

    Apr 26, 2001
    Orchard St, NYC
    Joseph,
    The thread I referred to earlier was regarding the Japanese government's official apologies, or the supposed lack thereof according to the Korean media. The basic gist was that while, despite itself, the Japanese government has made, at least in its mind, heartfelt apologies for its wartime crimes. However, the matter hasn't been helped by certain members of the Korean media, who took the statements out of context and ignored key parts, giving the impression that the Japanese were less than sincere in expressing their remorse.

    As for the textbooks, the hesitation in acknowledging the comfort women issue and official visits to Yasukini Shrine, the only explanation I can offer you is that the M.O. of the Japanese government is to make as few changes as possible as is anything but reflective of the will of the pepople.

    These are issues that are extremely embarassing to the Japanese people and most people would prefer that our representitives were more sincere and forthcoming with expressions of remorse and apology.

    Also keep in mind too that the controversial textbook ended up not being used by most schools and the Yasunkuni Shrine issue is not as simple as it appears - although war criminals are buried there, its primary purpose is to honor all of Japan's fallen soldiers, not just the officers. It is the only equivalent we have of the Arlington cemetary. Most of us would prefer that government officials didn't make official visits to the shrine or that the men who drove Japan into war are removed from the shrine.

    My original post was in response to Fred's blanket statement regarding the Japanese people, that we somehow lack remorse for our country's actions during the war. I, and a large percentage of Japanese are ashame of the country's past and would like nothing better for the government to be more assertive in expressing guilt.

    But if you had access to Japanese media, you'd know that the issue of Japan's war guilt does come up regulary without pressure from our Asian neighbors. Apologies and repartions to the war victims have always received support and controversial textbooks are quickly rejected. It's just that negative reports end up being more newsworthy, just like anywhere else in the world.
     
  8. Anthony

    Anthony Member+

    Chelsea
    United States
    Aug 20, 1999
    Chicago
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Guess what folks -- NONE OF THIS IS REALLY NEWS!

    It has been known since December 7, 1941, that about 1 hour before the Japanese planes hit Pearl Harbor, the USS Ward fired upon and presumably sank a Japanese miget submarine trying to sneak into Pearl Harbor.

    The only thing this finding proves is that the sub actually sank. The Ward's captain reported striking the sub, but saw no explosion. As the sub went down, the Ward dropped a load of depth charges. When it was over, they saw no wreckage and could not locate the sub on sonar. There always has been a question is the Ward actually sank the sub.

    The Ward radioed in a report. The officer on duty felt it was a case of war nerves (there had been quite a few "sub sightings" in the weeks before Pearl Harbor) and requested confirmation. He got it about one hour later, when Japanese planes hit Pearl.

    The planes were already in the air when the action took place. (The planes took off about 6 a.m. The Ward fired her first gun about 6:45.)
     
  9. Anthony

    Anthony Member+

    Chelsea
    United States
    Aug 20, 1999
    Chicago
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Two things here Dan.

    First off, we were actually decoding the Japanese message before their embassy was.

    Second, the famous "14 part message" did not contain a declaration of war or even a formal breaking of relations. Rather, it concluded


    When FDR read the 13th part of the message (on the night of December 6), he remarked "This means war". He read the rest of the message on the morning of December 7. NOTHING in the message indicated (1) that the Japanese were about to strike and (2) where the Japanese were to strike.

    As a result of reading this message, General Marshall sent out another war warning, it got to Pearl late, but it should not have mattered, in late November, the Army and Navy sent out warnings to all Pacific posts to prepare for imminent action.

    This is a feeble attempt at revisionism by this historian, especially feeble as this is not even new.
     
  10. joseph pakovits

    joseph pakovits New Member

    Apr 29, 1999
    fly-over country
    I'd say it was more the 50 year wait than anything the Korean media can say that has made the Japanese apologies look less than sincere.
    btw, I have no doubt that YOU personally are sincere. Too bad you're not the prime minister, though.

    I just gotta ask why they included the war criminals in the shrine in the first place. Can you even imagine a German war monument recognizing Hitler, Goering and Himmler? I can't.

    And the Japanese government can make lightnnig fast changes when it feels like it. They just seem to choose not to in the case of the textbooks because...

    Well, I'm not too proud of how the US government and our society in general has and continues to treat black people and Indians here but I feel no need to sweep it under the rug - as if we'd be fooling anyone over the age of three with such an attempt. As Anthony said, it ain't exactly news.

    But it is used by some.

    I suspect that the reluctance to use textbooks that reveal the atrocities and critixize the militarist government is partly because Japanese schools are much more concerned with producing obedient, conformist members of society (not an unreasonable goal considering the challenges of cramming such a large population in such a small amount of livable space, even for a homogenous group) than most nations' school systems and expressing disagreement with even past, discredited authority figures might undermine this goal by causing young people to question current government and business policies. Still, some lessons in history need to be learned more than Japan needs obedient salarymen and OLs...

    I'm in the middle between you and Fred. On the one hand, I do believe that many Japanese are ashamed of a few of the nation's past actions. On the other, while I realize that Japan is an extremely conflict-shy society, I ask why this silent majority has been so silent for so long when you know that every time the issue comes up it paints all Japanese in a bad light.

    I do keep an eye on events in Japan (http://www.japantimes.co.jp/ is but one possible source for English-speakers who wish to do so) and I recognize the biases of the news media but you gotta admit that the actions of both the Japanese government and some segments of Japanese society for the past 60 years make it VERY easy for ther rest of the world to assume the worst of Japanese attitudes towards WW2, especially in comparison with the breast-beating done by the equally proud Germans.

    And that's really all I have to say on this topic, I guess.
     

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