Valderrama was on the ballot for the first round of the Veterans election, but he didn't make the finals, perhaps because most of his great career took place in Colombia and Spain, and what a foreign player does in foreign leagues and with the national team of another country has no bearing on his qualification for a Hall of Fame of American soccer. Valderrama was great player, but his MLS career was a relative afterthought in his overall career.
Relative afterthought or not, Valderrama was the face of the league in its first season and won a well-deserved MVP award. And even though he was playing out the tail end of his career, nobody else in MLS history has racked up assists at a similar rate, 114 of them in only 175 games.
Hall/USSF was kind enough to give me 2014 percentages, so with Goff's 2015 we can sort of chart trends again. I'll try to get that up today.
There's no question that's true. But two things: ( a ) What did he actually do in terms of growing the league and the sport in the country, besides play well (on one side of the halfway line)? The Cosmos were Edson do Nascimiento "playing out the tail end of his career," but his actual impact on the sport, the country and his league were substantial. I loved watching El Pibe play, and even though he was near the end, he was amazing to watch. (Of course, he was a bit overqualified for a league that was still figuring it out.) ( b ) For better or worse, the electorate doesn't seem to care much for most players who didn't have a substantial MLS career AND a substantial US National Team career. (I'm talking male players. For female players, it seems to be US Nats and the electorate seems to realize the pro opportunities here have been catch-as-catch-can.) It's not the US Hall Of Players Who Were The Face Of The League For A Season (and you could make the argument that there were several of those guys in 1996, of which he was just one). It's also not the US Hall Of Players Who Had Amazing Peak Values But Didn't Really Move Us Forward, else you'd consider Donadoni for election. Valderrama got a combined 47% of the votes on the Player Ballot from 2005-2012 and never got more than 49.6%. (Peter Vermes never got more than 46%, which he got in his first year, and got an aggregate 35%, yet he got in eventually via the Veterans route.) Speaking of which, Dan mentioned it, and now that we have more data thanks to him and to Goff, we can look at some trends (that will be missing the 2013 data). 17 of the 23 players (74%) who have been elected via the Player Ballot have been elected in their first year of eligibility. The 12 men all had substantial USMNT careers and had domestic careers, and most of the men also had substantial European careers. The five women were all USWNT stalwarts. The other six were on the ballot for two (Agoos), three (Preki and Fawcett), four (Stewart) and seven (Moore and Dooley) years. Again, the men had both good MLS and domestic careers and Preki, Stewart, Moore and Dooley also played for clubs in Europe. And Fawcett was a very good USWNT player, obviously. Players who you could say are currently trending upward include Ben Olsen (17% to 26%), Briana Scurry (64% to 66%), Clint Mathis (28% to 29%), John O'Brien (9% to 12% to 15%), Steve Ralston (23% to 32%), Taylor Twellman (34% to 39%) and Tiffany Roberts (9% to 8% to 18%). Players whose arc has been up and down include Chris Armas (33% to 34% to a missing year to 28% to 29%), Chris Henderson (32% to 18% to 23% to 19%), Cindy Parlow (38% to 44% to 36% to a missing year to 33%) and Shannon MacMillan (27% to 32% to 55% to 54% to 49% to a missing year to 45% to 50%). Players who you could say are hanging around a certain level are Tony Sanneh (13% to 14%), Jason Kreis (between 30 and 31% the last three years with data, with 2013 missing). You could say Robin Fraser is trending downward (21% to 18% to 17%), though it's not a huge drop. Marco Etcheverry, a terrific player who was obviously a key player on an early MLS dynasty but who you couldn't really describe as a league changer of any sort in the overall scheme, started at 58%, dropped as low as 49% and finished at 52% (with 2013 missing, again). Mauricio Cienfuegos (whose description could be said to be the same) went from 30% to 25% and by 2011 was at 19%. Despite being a really, really good player who made quite an impact on very good MLS teams. The first-ballot people have been pretty obvious to the electorate, getting a combined 89% of votes cast in their first times up. (Michelle Akers was actually the closest to unanimous, with only three voters in the 2004 election not naming her. Four didn't vote for Hamm, Reyna or Keller, which makes me wonder who the hell they were.) You're far more likely to get in either right away or fairly quickly than building support over time. We'll see if that trend continues with the people who have just hit the ballot recently. Timing does play a role in this (Earnie Stewart didn't become a better player from 2008 to 2011, but his percentage went from 42 to 71 in that time). I think Twellman's and Ralston's spotty international careers may doom them unless the electorate changes its established criteria fairly soon. I think Scurry will get in, and I hope it's before Solo retires and has to be put in. It's all very interesting, how this goes. In some ways, our electorate is very similar to others. In other ways, we're unique. I'm glad we have more data now, but wish we had every percentage for every player for every year. We're close, and we can spot a lot of stuff going on, but not everything. Not yet.
Part of our problem (and this happens in other Halls as well, at least with younger voters) is in judging people of the past by today's standards, or without context. What else was Mooch supposed to do as a player, exactly? He was a Hermann Trophy winner (and might have won as a junior had he not been trying to help the US qualify for the Montreal Olympics). The Nats played exactly 24 games in the first five years of his professional career. He got capped in 10 of them. (By comparison, the current MNT has played 24 matches since October 2013.) The league he was playing in (and pretty well, too) folded when he was 30 years old. He was a really good player. Is he on the line? Fair enough. But not all of it was his fault. He could not control when he was born. The problem is in believing that US Soccer history began in 1996. The reason you consider those NASL players to be "long-forgotten" is PRECISELY the reason they should not be overlooked. They shouldn't BE forgotten. And the nuvo-hooligans who think scarves and beer are the coolest thing and who are all these people running around shouldn't rule the day. (I fully admit I am old.) That's kind of saying that high cap total just happened to him, like a car accident. Without all those goals he scored, Twellman wouldn't even be where HE is. But he scored all those goals. Because he was a really good goal-scorer. It's a shame we didn't get to see him do more for club and country. To be fair, only two men had more caps. And if MLS starts its own Hall of Fame, that seems redundant and seems like it would (unfortunately) put the final nail in the USHOF's coffin. There'd be no point. Just to recognize guys who had great MLS careers? Okay, fine. But our sport is different in that it has that national team component that (except for basketball), other sports don't really have. And I don't want to lose that. The individual teams can honor players with rings of whatever or statues or number retirements, that's fine. I just think we cheapen our own history by coming up with ways to circumvent it just so we can honor everybody we remember being really good in one facet of the game.
Pele had a lasting impact on the sport, but many of the other NASL-era Hall of Famers achieved far less than Valderrama did, both on the field and off it. As I mentioned already, at the start of MLS, Valderrama was the face of the league and its very best player, as well as sustaining his excellence over a number of years. Comparing him to Donadoni is ludicrous. I'll do my best to respond more fully later, but I think it bears adding that quite a few of the modern Player Ballot inductees did not have impressive MLS careers, and that at least one of them (Claudio Reyna) was an outright flop during his time here. That's obviously not an argument against Reyna's induction, just to point out that men's induction isn't about USMNT and MLS. As with the women, it's almost entirely just the national team.
Well, I've read your posts again, and I don't see any point in trying to reason with logic-free accusations like this. So instead, I'll turn the tables and declare that the problem is in believing that 1976-1981 was The Golden Age of club soccer in the US, and that nothing else is even worthy of consideration.
Different electorate. They put in a ton of NASL players right before the switch to the current voting system. I wasn't comparing him to Donadoni, genius. You missed the point. Which is not a surprise. I said "It's also not the US Hall Of Players Who Had Amazing Peak Values But Didn't Really Move Us Forward, else you'd consider Donadoni for election." Do you know what "peak value" means? Donadoni was one of the best players to play here. His MLS career was a blip. But if Cristiano Ronaldo comes here for a cup of coffee in 2018, he'll also be one of the best players to ever play here, regardless of how his LAFC career goes. That's where the comparison begins and ends. Valderrama is also one of the best players (based on peak value) to ever play here. And his MLS career was longer and more noteworthy than most players of that level of that era. I don't recall his teams ever actually winning much, though...retroactive Supporters Shield in the first year of brand new league in which his teammate feasted on sub-par back fours, and, let's see....that was actually it. Assists record at the time. Amazing to watch with the ball. Doesn't have a memorable moment you could point to. Other than that, total Hall of Famer. (As for being the league's "very best player," that's specious, too. May have been your favorite, but it seems like the Very Best Player [if only there were an award for that] should, you know, maybe win something once in a while. In 1996, surely, the MVP on the best regular-season team. Very good. Was in the top three in voting in 1997 when Preki won. Then never again, while Etcheverry, Kreis, Meola, Chacon and Ruiz were deemed to be the best player of that season. Best XI in 1996 and 1997 - when he was clearly among the very best players in the league - and 2000, all with Tampa Bay. The "number of years" he "sustained his excellence" over appears to have been maybe five.) That he was. That said, his European career was quite impressive and did raise the level of the American player. Keller didn't have a long, great MLS career either, but he did play here. He's probably in without coming back to play for Seattle. And I went through the others, but let's do it again, since you seem to be insistent on putting yourself forth as a voter, which you are not, and which I actually am. "Quite a few" of the modern Player Ballot inductees did not have impressive MLS careers. Okay. 17 men have been inducted in the modern era. Kasey Keller - only three years, but was 41 when he played his last match. I'd say he did fine in MLS. Brian McBride - move along, obvious Joe-Max Moore - more than a goal every other game the first go-round, decent MLS career Claudio Reyna - terrible MLS career Tony Meola - great MLS career Cobi Jones - great MLS career Eddie Pope - great MLS career Earnie Stewart - got here at the end after an impressive European career, much like Keller. Can't hold MLS against him, given the rest of his body of work. Thomas Dooley - two-time Best XI. Didn't end well. Preki - MVP, obviously a very good MLS career. Jeff Agoos - sure won a lot in MLS, didn't he? And above you admit he had a "great MLS career." Alexi Lalas - strange career, but the body of work is solid. Marcelo Balboa - obviously good MLS career Tab Ramos - injuries obviously kept him from a better career, though he was twice an All-Star when healthy John Harkes - that was a good MLS career Eric Wynalda - that was, too, though it got cut short Paul Caliguiri - did not have a spectacular MLS career, though he was 32 when he played his first MLS game, so playing and starting on an MLS Cup runner-up at age 37 had to count for something. So who's not impressive? Reyna, Stewart, Lalas (I guess), Ramos. If you want to throw Moore and Dooley and Cal in there, too, okay, but your argument is getting weaker. The strongest cases for weak MLS careers are Reyna, Stewart, Lalas and Ramos, but each of them has international careers that make up for it. That's four of seventeen. At no point did I say it was "ONLY Impressive Nats + Impressive MLS = induction." It appears to be "Impressive Nats + Impressive MLS = obvious induction," while "Impressive Nats + Reasonable MLS = likely induction" and "Outstanding Nats (or international, or both) + Whatever = Good chance you're in." There is no one who has been elected recently without a significant international career and AT LEAST a modicum of a domestic club career or a compelling reason to overlook it. Twellman's not in, and I have to believe his lack of production with the Nats matters. Kreis is not in despite retiring as the league's all-time leading scorer and I have to believe it's for the same reason. Steve Ralston is one of the best MLS players ever, and I have to believe his lack of Nats success works against him. Because that's what the electorate has done. And it's obvious when you look at it. For better or worse, that's what the electorate has done. And you can have whatever opinion you like. For reasons that we all understand, and which I pointed out. It really CAN'T be anything else but that. First off, you should really go outside and play hide and go ******** yourself. Because at no point did I say the 1976-81 era was the only one worthy of consideration. I said it should not be shunted aside merely because people like yourself have never heard of some people. It's a big hall. We have a big history. Granitza's not in at the expense of your boy Valderrama.
Dooley was indeed a two-time MLS Best XI player. Not that his contributions were anywhere close to Armas or Valderrama or Etcheverry or Moreno or even Shalrie Joseph, but at least he was among MLS' best performers for a time. Isn't it funny, however, that Kenn's rundown only mentions the MLS Best XI once? Perhaps that's because in spite of their name recognition, none of Joe-Max, Reyna, Stewart, Lalas, Balboa, Ramos, Harkes, Wynalda, McBride, or Caligiuri ever made it. In addition, Keller only made it once, in large part because he was retiring at the end of that year, and even Meola and Cobi only made the Best XI once apiece. It isn't easy to do. But then you've got a guy like Robin Fraser who made the MLS Best XI five times, and that's in spite of being nearly 30 by the time the league got underway. Before the start of MLS, he played six years in the APSL and was first-team all-league in five of those six years. To be among the very best performers at the highest level of domestic US soccer for so many years is an incredible feat, yet he can't get any traction on the Players Ballot at all.
I'm about to make the conversation worse and more subjective. But at least I'm not a voter! Oh, wait. I almost don't want to count MLS All-Star appearances, because I remember reading that in the earlies, All-Star appearances were part of the contract. Freddy Adu was an All-Star, remember (although a Commissioner's Pick, which should come with a blaring siren, let alone an asterisk). And, as with the Best XI, defensive players tend to get a command performance for His Majesty, the Royal Shaft. So, I count Fraser's appearances in the Best XI - a non-star playing a non-glamor position for more than a few non-glamor teams - WAY more heavily than I do for others. Chris Armas is another fantastic example - how many d-mids have been on Best XIs in MLS history? Three? Four? Armas, Zavagnin, and Shalrie Joseph. Joseph's another guy that I'm going to strongly, strongly consider voting for that has no chance in God's green hell of making it. Since Fraser's now off the ballot, I guess I need to throw one of my votes away on someone. The Hall is trending towards as a US National Team Hall of Fame, despite the Hall making it crystal clear that national team performance is but one factor to be considered. As Kenn said, hard to fault the women for this, because the next women's league that makes it to year four will be the first. And the women have to deal with those who won't vote for women, except in complete slam-dunk cases. Yeah, I'll go there. It's not the biggest issue in society today, but there's a gender bias in the electorate. There's no reason for anyone to vote against Lilly, let alone for her to get fewer votes than Keller. Players I consider to have more or less equivalent national team careers get fewer votes than their male peers. And this is taking into account that the male equivalent of Mia or Michelle is the Messiah To Come.
Mooch Myernick never appeared in any World Cup qualifiers for the US, and the only matches we won while he played were friendlies against China and El Salvador. Venturini, Parlow, Harvey, and Hamilton won World Cups, Olympic gold medals, that sort of thing. Meh. Myernick won a Hermann Trophy Parlow won two of them, but those were only Hermann Trophies for girls. Myernick played in 166 NASL games. That's as many games as Dan Gargan has played in MLS. No women played in the NASL Look at them side by side in a gender-unbiased way, and picking Myernick is so very easy.
Given the way that 1999 starters like Fawcett, Scurry, Milbrett, Markgraf and Parlow have struggled, a landslide for Chastain doesn't seem like a sure thing.
For the fun of it, I'll predict that Chastain gets 90%. I just think that being part of the iconic moment of 1999 will make it easy for voters.
Ninety percent is still too low for someone with Chastain's qualifications. Without that 1999 moment, though, she might not crack 80%. And I really don't like the chances for other women at this point, except for Wambach, Solo, Morgan, and whoever deigns to crash into the mainstream this summer, if anyone (I hope it's Rapinoe, but we'll see). The key players I'm worried about are Boxx and Rampone, who should be in by acclamation, but almost certainly will squeak in late, if not courtesy of the Vets.
Not funny at all, actually, and I don't think any of those guys you mentioned needed that as validation. Their careers were pretty good without it. (I also didn't feel the need to write down every single synapse that fired when I was giving consideration to every player.) I held off voting for Dooley for a while because ( a ) the system allows for us to make people wait if they do something to piss us off and ( b ) I felt he deserved a time out for 1998 and for the Fitzgerald thing. Apparently I was not alone in that thinking. Also, I formally apologize for yelling at you.
(I also voted for Robin Fraser seven times, precisely for the reasons elucidated above, and more.) You can take issue with anyone's votes on anything - free country and all that - but at least mine aren't secret and don't go unexplained. I probably lead the league in transparency when it comes to this.
Soccer Hall of Fame remains on track for Dallas suburb By Steven Goff September 1 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...for-dallas-suburb/?postshare=1111441121286447 Frisco, Tex., home to MLS’s FC Dallas and an expansive athletic complex in the fast-growing north Dallas suburbs, is the clear front-runner to become the site of the National Soccer Hall of Fame, multiple sources told the Insider.
$39mill and the Hunt Family being involved ain't nothing to sneeze at: http://friscoblog.dallasnews.com/20...improvements-for-friscos-toyota-stadium.html/ National Soccer Hall of Fame space among proposed improvements for Frisco’s Toyota Stadium Valerie WigglesworthFollow @vlwiggEmail vwigglesworth@dallasnews.com Published: September 15, 2015 8:29 am
First suburban Dallas steals the Bowling Museum from St. Louis, and now they plunder the remains of Oneonta. I don't like it.
presser will be on 10/14: http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/artic...w-national-soccer-hall-fame-be-built-toyota-s
So, based on the pictures the National HOF will be housed in a structure that's decked out in FC Dallas signage? That's messed up. At the least they could give the building it's own space or distinguish it from the local team. Greatly appreciate what the Hunt's have done for the sport but this is wrong.