US - ivory coast post game discussion [R]

Maybe this is the key to the whole Ady thing. Quaranta really left a hole in our lineup with his bad play and we're trying to fil it with a precocious 14 year old. Someone also said that we might be expecting too much out of Freddy as a 14 year old. I also might be guilty of that. I think my main problem with his game is #1. His lack of defense. #2. He doesn't show for the ball enough. He's got to comeback and relieve pressure in the midfield. He isn't fast enough for guys to launch over-the-top balls to him, but he's got the skills to recieve the ball in the midfield and create something for someone else. In the end, the injury to Arturo Alvarez is a big hit, but we need Freddy to play smarter if we want to beat Argentina.

 

I switched on the TV we were up 1-0. The ivorians were all over us. Their superiority was ample to see. I was about to have a heart attack and waiting for the inevitable 1-1. Then ...2-0 and that was "au revoir les enfants". (hasta la vista muchachos)
I must say I thought we played a very very intelligent game. I thught we had the right team in the game. Thomas Wrongman had it right this time eventhough my heart sank when he took out Convey. I thought it was too early for that.
But any way. Wrongman was right this time around..
I get this feeling that although we played cleverly and we won there is something there that is not convicing...But then we might get lucky against the argies, win...and then...

PS_ somone he said that Adu "played like a 14 year old". That's bad.... taking into account that he is 14 years old in his birth certificate only....

 

Argentina-Egypt Result!!!

Just a name to remember going forward:

Fernando Cavenaghi

I've watched a number of River Plate games where this kid has been an animal. He just scored the winner for Argentina over Egypt, and will be the biggest test of the tournament so far for the US back line. I watched some tournament highlights where this kid has seemed to be involved in every important play for Argentina at this championship.

To quote one of the greatest movies of all time, "Cochrane and Marshall, by the end of the game, I want to know what flavor of gum that kid chews!"

 

A lot of players played well today.

Mapp was MOTM in the first half. Followed by Convey.

Convey became MOTM for the game for his second half an excellent game. 80 minutes of all out smart soccer and effort.


White Bread looked very good.

Our Keeper had a very good first half, and over all game.

Johnson had a very good game. If he scored on those two chances one in the first half, and one in the second half. He might have been MOTM.

Adu tried to play a disciplined game. He wanted to be a short passing option. Then the backs went long. He has to go up and be a short uption for our players up field as well when they have the ball. He lost it when he tried to move to the ball when it was on the other side of the field when he got impatient. I think that is why Rongen took him out. He did get a foul call in the area that gave us a PK and Johnsons goal. That lack of patience on his part now is a sign of his true age which is probably 14.

Clark another bad game. What's wrong with him? Does he have the flu? He is playing like he has the flu.

To bad we did not get many or any shots on goal against their sub keeper.

Nice win in any event.

One question why isn't McGee seeing any playing time anymore. He was not playing bad when he played. I have to believe he is hurt. Is he hurt does anyone know?

Also 13 offside calls or whatever it was is too many. But I think some were questable.

I am absolutely sure that 0 offside for Ivory coast is definately too few when your looking to attack.

Better game then the korean game. I did not see the Arabs pile out of the stands after the 60 minute in this game.

Richie

 

Just like the Ivory Coast players were really 20!

 

No, you aren't wrong. There was a large section early in the first half (including the goal) where the US midfield moved the ball with some phenomenal one touch passing up the field. I was amazed by a lot of the off the ball work as well, where the offensive part of the team not only opened multiple passing options, but made those fast touches well and covered for each other such that the errant passes often ended up going through to another US player who was in the correct spot to cover. Frankly, I haven't seen a US side at any level organize that well at speed up front in a while as this team did from minutes 5 through about 20. Of course, the defense really looked sleepy and disorganized, so depending on which part of the pitch you were watching you could get a very different impression of this game.

G.

 

Convey was the Playmaker.

 

I can't believe so many people here are upset or surpsied about the play of the defense. Christ, what did you expect?

Three college boys and a reserve teamer playing out of position in front of a college GK. At times they've been exposed. Well, no $hit.

Expecting them to be better than they are is naive or unrealsitc. Personally, I think they've overachieved in having three games where they gave up one goal combined.

Individually, all of our backs have shown potential and inexperience at the same time.

Marshall is just a physical stud who needs to learn to play more quickly and be put in a constant level where he can't get by on his physical skills.

Cochrane is the headiest of the bunch but is physically a bit limited but is usally in the right place. Put some experience, particualrly in dealing with fast, pressure situations, in that head and you'll have an Agoos-type solid player.

Whitbread, is solid in the air and tacitcally smart and can hit a great long ball but needs more consisntency and to learn when to play it simple and short. He also needs to play the angles and corner a bit better when faster, smaller players are coming down the flank, something he doesn't see too much in England where he plays in the middle.

Moor is clearly learning on the fly and it shows. Needs to know when to body and when to sit back but his instincts seem good and you have to like his toughness.

Klaas is actually a good technical little player but he needs to be in a faster environment where he learns to read the game faster - they all need that.

Cronin is a great shot-stopper with nice size and quick reflexes who needs to learn better positioning and improve his distribution. (I'm guessing he'll get an invite to a trial or two based on his second round game today.)

One thing I really like about them is that they really seem to work for each other as a unit and cover for each other. Sometimes the game is faster than the cover is provided and that's when the problems are created. But, while that's unfortunate, it shouldn't be a surprise. I bet if you took this group and gave them two years in MLS, they would all look a lot more solid.

But, till MLS offers more money and offers the backs better deals to leave school early or more get the chance to go to Europe, this isn't going to happen. Klaas, Cochrane and Marshall have all turned down P40 deals in the past. MLS doesn't offer the backs as much as it offers the attacking players to leave school early. Why do you think Gooch and Yi and Gibbs and Spector are in Europe. Why do you think Chris Wingert and Chris Gbandi returned for their senior years?

Till that chances, we're going to see this chasm between our backs and our attack and our defense will be the weak link at the youth national team level. That's just a fact and no one should be surprised.

Instead, try and look at the potential of our backs and who has a chance to do something at the pro or national team level once they get in a pro environment. And, when I do that, I see a group that has some chances to do good things in a couple years.

 

I respectfully disagree. His mere presence froze Korea sh$tless on that side of the pitch before that game fizzled out. And he made a decisive mark on today's game, even if you evidently discount the importance of earning a PK and sending in a briliant through ball to EJ.

And who else is going to start? Quaranta, Klaas, Dempsey? If anything, put Stone in for Grabavoy, but leave Freddy. He may not have much D, but he will hold the ball, pass it back, work it forward in tight space -- in other words, he has the skills to help possess. Coupled with his attack threat, that is enough for me. And I firmly believe it's more than anyone else will give us there.

I thought his presence also freed up a little pressure on the other side of the pitch and in particular on Mapp, who then did his damage. Adu just being out there changes things in subtle ways, making all our attackers more dangerous.

We can't just stick a defensive type mid in for him and hope to hold the ship against Argentina. We will have to continue playing smart but attacking football like we have been, and try to keep the other team on its toes and take some pressure of our collegians. Freddy needs to be on for as long as possible, IMHO, if we are to have a chance to go through. We can't afford to skimp on class in this game just because the other team is full of class. We have to keep taking it to them. That's how this team plays, and in that setup Freddy has made a difference as a starter.

 

Richie, you seem to know your stuff, and follow the MetroStars. My sense from intermittently watching NY/NJ is that Clark looked like a potentially devastating combination of Chris Armas and Claudio Reyna for the first part of the year, but was rather less impressive later.

Was he really playing less well, did teams adjust, or was it the tactical adjustment from the box midfield, moving him ouit wide? Or am I off base, and he was fine all year long?

 

Bobby Convey impressed me, again, he is a complete player, defense, attacking, assisting, play maker. By the way, will the next round be an impossible mission for us ? they just beat the team that beat us in the last tournament.

 

I'm proud of the defense - I was tempted to duck and cover my eyes when the IC offense was ramping up. Speed to burn, and I was waiting for it to kill our guys, but they hung in there.

It wasn't pretty, and Cronin was a stud to hang on to some tough shots. I especially like that he didn't allow hardly any rebounds. No second chances practically.

The defense helped Cronin out - they simply weren't good enough to save him, but they DID help - by chasing even when they were beat off the dribble and by winning nearly everything in the air.

Of course, Argentina is better than the IC, and it could get ugly next game, but I'm grinning right now. This game gives me a lot of hope. If our defense could survive this, I see them as being more ready for the Argies than I previously would have hoped.

Venga, venga, boys!

 

Actually I think the most important players for this squad are Convey, Mapp, and Ed Johnson. Throw in Adu as another attacking option. I think it comes down to this. The other 7 players have to do everything in thier power to support the Big 3. IMHO if those 3 are playing well, and don't have to worry about tracking back every 5 seconds to play defense, We'll have a good shot to win the game. You know that we'll creaet At least half a dozen chances from the triplets if they are allowed to operate offensivly.

 

This wasn't directed to me, but I watched quite a bit of Clark, and I know that you are at least as much of a college b-ball fan as I am. I liken Clark's first season in MLS to the typical rookie season for players in the NBA. About halfway through, they just hit the wall. Clark seemed to hit the wall in August.

 

Well Id take Arturo Alvarez in that position, but hes not healthy. Bringing in Johnson seems like the only option, as Quaranta has been terrible. Johnson has been rooted to the bench though, so its speculative at best. I have no idea how he is likely to play, as I havent been in practices. Then again, like I said I dont know if there are any options. If I could clone Mapp though, Id start him on both sides.

But I cant, so I still may start Adu, but if you dont see that right nwo hes a double edged sword, creating some good things and allowing some bad things to transpire, then your not paying attention.

I dont really see that, in fact I think thats utter bull@#$%. I mean its a nice thought, but I cant think of one occaision where a player was freed up because the defense was overplaying Adu. That argument is kind of like this rock I have that keeps away tigers. I know it works because ive never seen one by my home.

 

freddy totally belongs out there, and agree he needs to come back for the ball more often. the ej pk was all adu (well, nice pass bobby)- he's the only us player that catches up to that ball. lots of poise by all in the 2nd half. ic never recovered from the red.

 

1) Thank you DC ESPNZone. About 10 minutes in and this was on the big screen.

2) Some of you guys are pretty close to clinically insane in your negativity. To wit:

a) We won 2-0.

b) They were down 1, then 2. They didn't press the play in the second half. It's not the US's duty/obligation to keep attacking and leave themselves exposed in the back. If IC didn't want to extend their forwards/midfielders and chase up top, that's THEIR BAD. Not ours.

c) Freddy just isn't as bad defensively as the comments on this board would indicate. I really think some of you guys completely undersestimate what he does to the complexion of a game.




3) Mapp is freakin' fast. I mean, maybe it's that he's whiter than Siberian snow -- he's deceptive? I dunno. All I know is that on at least 4 occassions he simply blew past 2-3 players down his wing. Great game.

4) EJ really showed me something today. His control with his back to the goal and his speed running at the IC goal was very impressive.

5) Convey's assist was brilliant. Bobby and Adu linked up incredibly well during the first half. Even some of their thwarted attempts were fun to watch -- you can see them developing an understanding as each game progresses.

6) Cronin made some stellar saves -- he also scared me on at least 3 ocassions coming out a step late. On one in particular (2nd half) the ball was deflected up high and he came WAY late and had to sort of slap at the ball awkwardly... He makes me a bit nervous on high balls is my bottom line.



Overall, I think if we continue to play that attacking style we played in the first, the Argies can be put on their heels. That's the key and I think Thomas will have the boys rested and ready to go.

 

There is a big difference between playing boomball and attacking via the long ball -- or Route 1 soccer. Boomball is when our guys (generally defenders in their own third) just knock it away -- wherever they happen to be facing whether it's into the stands or upfield to their defense.

Long ball or direct soccer or Route 1 soccer is when as a tactic we make long passes to attackers going over their defense.

I haven't watched the game yet -- which I will tonight when I get home -- but from the descriptions, it did sound like we played a fair amount of long ball but not boomball. And we played long ball because that's the tactic the Ivory Coast left open to us. They pushed up hard and we've got the speed to expose that.


A comment about those complaining about us sitting on our 2nd half lead...

First off, I would have been very leary of that tactic given the relative lack of experience our defenders have. But Rongen obviously had confidence in them and he was right.

Second, whether you think it was tactic to employ or not, I have this to say -- we will be able to advance or not based upon our ability to attack (or not). We have already played 4 games in 10 days and now we are facing Argentina. Convey, EJ, Mapp & Clark have played a LOT of minutes. Those guys need to be fresh on Friday. IMO, taking the air out of the ball and then subbing EJ and Convey was exactly what we should have been doing in the 2nd half today.

As a note...

Argentina only has 1 player (a defender) that has played all 4 full games and only 2 others (both midfielders) that have played more than 3.5 total games.

On contrast, we have 4 players (GK & 3 defenders) that have played all 4 full games and 4 others (the 4 I mentioned above -- Convey, EJ, Mapp & Clark) that have played more than 3.5 games.

About the only advantage that we have over Argentina here is that their last "full game" was 20 minutes of extra time and their top 7 players played all 110 minutes.

NOW do you think it was a good idea to slow the pace down in the second half???

 

First off, not trying to engage in a typical ad hominem/BS debate. I just disagree, nothing personal.

Go back and watch this game (if you can). How many times does Freddy receive the ball in a wide open/un-marked position? Conversely, Mapp often received the ball with no one near him. 2 or 3 of his lengthy runs came when he had all sorts of time/space to run at guys who simply couldn't believe he was going to take them on... they were toast.

Freddy, on the other hand, has teams overplaying and overthinking. That frees things up. Hell, don't take it from me, take it from opposing players/coaches who've admitted as much in the U17 and here in Dubai.

 

No, he was def. playing much worse by the end of the year. This all culminated in a horrendous game against NE where he was beaten all day.

A couple of things happened to him.

He wore out. Even in a couple of articles, he spoke about the difficulty of the mental aspect at keeping up the level of intensity. This was also true for Magee.

Also, Bradley tried him out wide where he wasn't too impressive.

 

Sorry, I've never been a "Freddy is God" person, but a no-defense Freddy that fades is far superior to Tino the Wonder Donkey. [/QUOTE]

Segroves is right...

Adu fades in and out like a nuclear blast, Apoo. He drew the PK and played Johnson through in a position dangerous enough to get the other keeper sent off.

He's a home-run hitter right now and he needs to stay on. We've got loads of guys throughout the US systems who are grinders.

 

Does your rock draw penalties, too?

Jokes aside, I think your *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# detector is working

But I do believe the other team has to consider Freddy in the way they approach us, and that those considerations can end up having an impact on our whole team. You're right, Freddy is a double-edged sword, especially against a tactically savvy and technically accomplished team like Argentina. But I don't see any way out of playing him.

We can only hope the sword cuts more our way, which I believe it clearly has thus far.

 

Congratulations to the team and Thomas Rongen. That is a tremendous accomplishment. They beat a very good team. They played heady soccer and showed some nice skill out there. It's great to see Thomas' group continue to advance. Thomas is such a good guy. Also, really good games from Cronin and Whitbread.

On the downside, I was little disappointed with the number of long, hopeful balls out of the back, especially in the first half. It seemed like a lack of patience rather than a lack of skill. If we really try to link passes and keep the ball on the pitch, it seems that we can be successful at doing it. The times when we really made a concerted effort to make high percentage-passes and move the ball on the field, we were able to do it. We linked a number of passes. But sometimes -- even when pressure was not on -- a kid would just blast it up field. Getting results is important, but this is youth tournament. So working at playing good soccer might help the kids develop more as players for the future. Also, in the long run, moving the ball on the pitch -- if you are good enough to do so -- helps teams get results.

Also, before we got our second goal, I would like to have seen us pressure their backs closer to their endline. We didn't start pressuring until they got within about 10 to 15 yards of the midline. When U.S. teams pressure sooner -- almost right away --they seem to do well. It's a pain in the butt to pressure the ball! Especially for forwards. They rarely get the ball. And it's tiring. But the pressure creates turnover and makes it difficult for the other side to play creative soccer. We saw this when the U.S. National Team played Portugal in the World Cup and Italy in the friendly before the World Cup. By the same token, today was the kids' fourth match of the tournament, and its tiring to play high-pressure soccer in the fourth match of a tournament. Also, we got a result, and it is hard to argue with that.

Finally, we ran a one-forward line-up, which usually isn't a good idea. Defensively, it is so hard for the lone forward to pressure. And, offensively, he often doesn't have someone else to link with. One interesting dimension of two-forward line-ups: Even if the two forwards rarely pass the ball to each other, just having them both up there helps give each of them space to operate; as the one takes runs that drag defenders away from the other.

I would be inclined to go with of the two following line-ups:

Moor----Marshall---Cochran---Whitbread
-------------------Clark-----------------
Mapp-----------Convey------------Adu
----------Johnson------Cameron--------

Or:

Marshall---Cochran---Whitbread
---------------Clark--------------
Mapp-----Grabavoy------Adu
-----------Convey------------
-----Johnson-----Cameron-----

I like what little I have seen from Cameron. He is athletic and plays well with his back to goal. He also makes good decisions with the ball. He plays within himself.

On the other hand, it’s hard to argue with success. And we have played pretty well the last couple games, and we’ve had a one-forward line-up in them.

 

Us Fire fans have been seeing this all year. There are times he blows by guys in a more spectacular fashion than Beasley does. But that's could be because everybody knows Beasley is fast and is already making the turn to run. They underestimate Mapp because he's bigger at 5'10" and he's deceptively quick so he just blows by them.