US Faces Danger in Lawsuit Over Ticketing Policies

Thomas Flannigan · Feb 28, 2003

Several people have asked what ever happened to the lawsuit filed in the wake of the US-Honduras game. The lawsuit arose out of a controversy where the Honduras ambassador complained that he was the victim of race discrimination because he could not buy 50 seats in the VIP section. The media staunchly backed the Catrachos, accusing the USSF of racism in selling tickets to that game. At stake is whether the USSF can segregate fans at USMNT games based on their allegiance, as well as other issues. Today is the second anniversary of the U.S. victory over Mexico in Columbus, Ohio, so it is appropriate that we consider whether there will ever be something like that again in the U.S.
After considerable hassle, I have obtained a copy of the docket sheet for the case, Humberto Martinez v. USSF and Anschuzt Enterprises 02-CV-1093, pending before Judge Friedman in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia. I have also called the plaintiff’s attorney. I would be happy to try to give my read on the case based on the terse computer entries in the federal docket, or mail a copy to interested parties. It is a matter of public record but hard to get hold of.
If this thread gets moved I would appreciate being told where it is moved to. If it is stopped there is not much I can do about that but I can PM the information if people are interested.
It is kind of important to the future of fan support for the USMNT as well as USSF policies.

michael greene · Feb 28, 2003

I definitely want to see that. Is PM the best?

Thanks.

Bill Archer · Feb 28, 2003

Why PM it around? Why not post what you have?

I can't believe the mods would object, but you could ask them in advance I suppose.

I for one would very much like to read the stuff.

As for the rest, the issue to me is not one of "race" and the buttwipe filing this case knows that.

If the Yankees are playing the Braves in Yankee Stadium in the world series and the Yankees restrict sales to Braves fans because they want to maintain a home field advantage, nobody says boo.

It's only circumstantial that the two teams involved here, and thus the fans involved, are from different nations.

Thomas Flannigan · Feb 28, 2003

Michael, your recent posts have been very good, keep up the good work. Whether to put it here or via PM is not my call. Obviously, it is more efficient to put it here so everyone can get the details if they are interested. It also may draw someone out who knows way more about it than I do.

dark knight · Feb 28, 2003

Seems okay to stay here to me.

monster · Feb 28, 2003

http://espn.go.com/soccer/s/2002/0614/1395088.html

Just for the background. I'd also like to see how the media was staunchly behind him since I found little to nothing on the case beyond the straight reporting that a suit would be filed.

Motterman · Feb 28, 2003

Originally posted by Bill Archer
Why PM it around? Why not post what you have?

I can't believe the mods would object, but you could ask them in advance I suppose.

I for one would very much like to read the stuff.

As for the rest, the issue to me is not one of "race" and the buttwipe filing this case knows that.

If the Yankees are playing the Braves in Yankee Stadium in the world series and the Yankees restrict sales to Braves fans because they want to maintain a home field advantage, nobody says boo.

It's only circumstantial that the two teams involved here, and thus the fans involved, are from different nations.
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I agree that you should be able to set up intended sections for certain supporters/fans. But I think this stems from the fact that they wouldn't sell you a ticket in a certain section if you had a hispanic name, which is totally wrong.

Thomas Flannigan · Feb 28, 2003

Bill, I agree with you. I just don't want to spend time putting it together only to have it moved or stopped. I don't want to cause trouble. I only want to learn and share what I know. I guess that is the essence of public discourse.

michael greene · Feb 28, 2003

To post or not to post. The suspense is killing me......

If posting it is too much trouble, if you PM it to a couple, and they PM to a couple, the next thing you know it's like that old shampoo commercial and everybody has it.

Or you could explain how you got it and those who care will duplicate your effort.

Thanks.

Norsk Troll · Feb 28, 2003

After considerable hassle, I have obtained a copy of the docket sheet for the case, Humberto Martinez v. USSF and Anschuzt Enterprises 02-CV-1093, pending before Judge Friedman in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia. ... It is a matter of public record but hard to get hold of.
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I thought you were an attorney? How hard is it to log onto PACER and download the docket sheet at $0.07 a page?

mathisbenched · Feb 28, 2003

Just post it. Who really cares how it got out.

Thomas Flannigan · Feb 28, 2003

Thanks Dark Knight.
The case is proceeding to trial. That is bad news for US fans. A discovery cutoff has been set for March 10, 2003. That means documents must be produced and depositions concluded by that date. The USSF just substituted attorneys, retaining new counsel on January 6, 2003. Not a good sign. Judge Friedman has directed the parties not file discovery with the Court. This tea leaf can be read a couple of ways. Most federal courts have local rules which discourage the filing of discovery, telling the parties to just mail it to each other rather than clogging the Court file. Either one of the attorneys was not aware of this or one of the parties was filing it anyway, antagonizing the judge.
In reading a docket sheet, what is important is not just what is there but what is not there. By that I mean that omissions can tell you more about the case than what is printed. There is no mention of class action certification. Press reports indicated that the plaintiff's attorney was seeking a class action. There is a jury demand, filed both by the plaintiff and the Anchutz Group. Normally, you cannot have a jury for a case that seeks equitable relief, such as an injunction forbidding the USSF from selling blocks of tickets to US fans groups without letting Hispanic fans in on it.
The plaintiff is seeking $1,000,000 in damages.
I know this is coming at you piecemeal but I am pressed for time. There is a lot more detail that I can give you.

Thomas Flannigan · Feb 28, 2003

I think PACER is a hassle. Just my opinion. If someone else wants to give their credit card number to PACER and comply with it, that is their business.

Bill Archer · Feb 28, 2003

Originally posted by Motterman
I agree that you should be able to set up intended sections for certain supporters/fans. But I think this stems from the fact that they wouldn't sell you a ticket in a certain section if you had a hispanic name, which is totally wrong.
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I agree that they went about it in a pretty hamhanded way.

But the intent of the policy was NOT racial discrimination but sporting advantage.

As for US vs. Mexico two years ago today, that WAS a special night. Nobody who was there will ever forget it.

But that was pulled off with sales solicitations to Crew ticket holders and US Soccer members. A big deal was made of the fact that when the game went on public sale it sold out in 40 minutes.

But there were only about 1,000 seats left, all of them were scattered around in ones and twos and they limited box office to two tickets per customer.

I don't see a problem with doing it that way. A preference was given to mailing list sales, but nothing wrong with that certainly. Not their fault that there were only 22,000 seats.

I've said this before: no matter how many SSS's get built around the country, I think it would be wise for the Mexican Federation to do a contract deal with Adam's Mark in CBus; IMO Mexico will be seeing Crew Stadium for any significant game for a heck of a long time to come.

mathisbenched · Feb 28, 2003

Doesn't tell me much.

lasoccervegas2002 · Feb 28, 2003

the USSF can also ivestigate if those hondurans who are living here in US about their lns status, than we can deport them who are found ilegal aliens back to Honduras.

BenC1357 · Feb 28, 2003

Unless they can absolutely prove that it was based on race alone, I wouldnt think they have a case.

Example: NFL teams alot a certain amount of tickets to the opposing team to sell. The KC Cheifs have sold out 100+ games in a row and last I checked no Raiders fans have filed suit because they didnt get to buy tickets. Its all part of being the home team in my opinion.

michael greene · Feb 28, 2003

By simply filing this kind of case, they have put the USSF on the defensive. The end result doesn't really matter. Not that the USSF has ever tried to give us a home field advantage in places like LA, DC, NJ, etc., but the fear of suits like this makes it even more unlikely they will attempt to do so in the future.

I'll bet that this is settled out of court, with no damages, but some sort of declaration from the USSF that it will not try to limit ticket sales to any group.

In some mythical future where there are SSS stadiums with a US fan base that can be pre-sold like Crew Stadium, this won't be an issue. Until then, you should move to Columbus if you want to see a big match.

iowa007 · Feb 28, 2003

my two cents

hey, let themn segregate fans, at the us-mexico match in the january before the WC (us 2- mex.0)

i was in the stands, i am mex. am., i was there to see the nats, but i dare not show it, everybody around me was pro-mexico, and i say tons of drinks, bottles, and lemons thrown at nats fans, i saw a fight right in front of me between a nats fan and a tri fan...

it was dangerous....maybe because it was in LA and at the coliseum....

i would have rather gone to support the nats in a nats only section where i would be safe.

that is all

iowa007

ps- i hope the USSF wins...anybody know of any precendets that relate to this case?

ThreeApples · Feb 28, 2003

Isn't the plaintiff in this case a USA fan and DC United season ticket holder who claims he was denied tickets offered to DCU season ticket holders because of his Spanish surname?

Kryptonite · Feb 28, 2003

Go to ticketmaster.com.

You'll see quite frequently "limit X number of tickets per person."

And I do believe we should give visiting fans corner seats, and try to split them up as much as possible.

They try to do the same thing down there.

Next thing you know, someone will complain about certain projects which do not exist.

neilgrossman · Feb 28, 2003

Originally posted by BenC1357

Example: NFL teams alot a certain amount of tickets to the opposing team to sell. The KC Cheifs have sold out 100+ games in a row and last I checked no Raiders fans have filed suit because they didnt get to buy tickets. Its all part of being the home team in my opinion.
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A parellel example might be:

The Packers host the Raiders and single-game tickets are sold. The Packers represent a mostly white city and most of their fans are white. Oakland is a much higher percentage black, so there fans are too. If the Packers keeps tickets for the good seats for their fans, are they racially descriminating against blacks?

raza_rebel · Feb 28, 2003

Re: my two cents

Originally posted by iowa007
hey, let themn segregate fans, at the us-mexico match in the january before the WC (us 2- mex.0)

i was in the stands, i am mex. am., i was there to see the nats, but i dare not show it, everybody around me was pro-mexico, and i say tons of drinks, bottles, and lemons thrown at nats fans, i saw a fight right in front of me between a nats fan and a tri fan...

it was dangerous....maybe because it was in LA and at the coliseum....

i would have rather gone to support the nats in a nats only section where i would be safe.

that is all

iowa007

ps- i hope the USSF wins...anybody know of any precendets that relate to this case?
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The US-Mexico game was a very special night. I am Latino and when I ordered tickets there was no problem (and I have a Spanish Surname).

Of course the US-Honduras game is a different story. I'm sure there is some sort of precedent (possibly in Europe) that seperates fans and doesn't allow the visitors to buy in certain areas for their own protection. Having been to U. de Chile and Colo Colo matchups, I'm glad fans get seperated!! It seems that he is peeved that he wasn't allowed to buy VIP tickets. Was he allowed to buy tickets at all?

Thomas Flannigan · Feb 28, 2003

Some good posts here and it is nice to see the Hispanic-Americans giving us their thoughts. Michael Greene and Noah have very good points. Even if the USSF wins the suit, the chilling effect on future ticket policies and many other decisions could be pretty bad. The worst case scenario is still awful. I can think of a lot of civil rights lawsuits filed in non-soccer situations that raise claims that have not even been tested yet in this context. I think patriotic Ameicans should not take such cases. If you gave me 100 million dollars I would not take such a case. But plenty of attorneys will.
Of course it makes sense from a safety perspective to segregate the fans. I am so glad the Mexican FA segregated us in Azteca on July 1, 2001. Tell that to Court. I think the reporter who wrote the slavishly pro-Hispanic article which ripped the USSF posts on Big Soccer. Not sure. Whoever he is he rejected these safety considerations.

SoFla Metro · Feb 28, 2003

Originally posted by Thomas Flannigan
I think the reporter who wrote the slavishly pro-Hispanic article which ripped the USSF posts on Big Soccer. Not sure. Whoever he is he rejected these safety considerations.
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Which article was that? Can you provide a link?