PBP: US-Curacao, Gold Cup Quarters, 6/30

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by thedukeofsoccer, Jun 30, 2019.

  1. Marius Tresor

    Marius Tresor Member+

    Aug 1, 2014
    Except that he has never crossed midfield. I would rather see Fabian Johnson there. He would be an upgrade until he is at least 40, and maybe even after that.
     
  2. Marius Tresor

    Marius Tresor Member+

    Aug 1, 2014
    Problem is, he totally botched his favorite 23, and 40, for that matter.
     
  3. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    I know it's been said, but this Curacao team was very decent, organized and knows how to defend. Definitely impressed.
     
    Mr Martin, SteelyTom and ChrisSSBB repped this.
  4. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    Somebody run a language comp app and see who this guy used to be. Lol...
     
    dlokteff and thedukeofsoccer repped this.
  5. Sparta Rotterdam

    Sparta Rotterdam New Member

    Jun 17, 2016
    Yes
    #630 Sparta Rotterdam, Jul 1, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
    Fortunately we do now see many world tactics belatedly brought to the USMNT. They're better about that than they used to be. I remember sometime between the late 90's and early 2000's when the USMNT first started to realize that passing backwards can sometimes be the most effective pass to make; and that soccer, counter to what every American "knows" is not actually about kicking the ball real far-like down the big field (forward, ever forward) then running as fast as you can towards it.

    Michael Bradley was the early Chief of American back-passing (early, but still 30-40 years behind most international teams) and for a while he employed it pretty well. Then after a few years he started only making backpasses--often it situations where it made no sense and/or was terribly risky. (OK, I will admit he plays a position which calls for a lot of back-passes).

    So yeah. Americans do eventually adopt many international game tactics. But that doesn't help them at all with knowing how to pass, dribble, and trap. Because you're supposed to learn and perfect those things long before you even know what a tactic is.

    US has gotten better over the years at responding to and preparing for world teams' soccer tactics. But the simple truth is: USMNT players, as individuals, can not pass, dribble, or trap as well as your average Central American high-level amateur league starter.

    Yeah. Perhaps that's a valid reason for why the USA is not among the Brazils and Germanys. It is not a valid reason for our players never having had the individual skills of upper-average players around the world.
     
  6. soccermilitant

    soccermilitant Member+

    Jan 14, 2009
    St.paul
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    so we dont do good hockey then?
     
  7. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    Yeah, Thomas Dooley had no idea that there was such a thing as backpacking...
     
  8. Sparta Rotterdam

    Sparta Rotterdam New Member

    Jun 17, 2016
    Yes
    I won't say that Wikipedia is exactly "wrong" here but it's misleading at best to say:

    "[...] 'kicks from the penalty mark' [...] are used as a tie-breaking measure in [...] tournaments or cup competitions where matches cannot end in a draw."

    If a game is tied after regular and extra-time then that tie is not broken, the game ends in a draw. So Wiki is not clear when it says "tie-breaking measure" because it implies the 'measure' (kicks from penalty mark) is used to break the tied match score so to determine a winner of the match. It is not.

    It's also misleading to say "...where matches cannot end in a draw." Because any soccer game can and does end in draws. It's more accurate to say: "tournaments where one team must advance". They're not the same thing.

    The only reason at all for 'kicks from the penalty mark' (technically, they're not 'Penalty Kicks') is because you have two teams who came to a draw in a knock-out match and one team of the two must advance to the next round (or become the champion if it's the final round).

    Use to be they would just draw lots. Now they do spot kicks. Most folks like the kicks better.
     
  9. roby

    roby Member+

    SIRLOIN SALOON FC, PITTSFIELD MA
    Feb 27, 2005
    So Cal
    That's pretty straight forward. If the rules of the contest stipulate the match cannot end in a draw and a winner must be declared....somebody loses. :)
     
  10. Sparta Rotterdam

    Sparta Rotterdam New Member

    Jun 17, 2016
    Yes
    #635 Sparta Rotterdam, Jul 1, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
    I freely admit to exaggerating... the point was that the US was very late to add back-passing as a part of a nutritious breakfast.

    No.. as a deliberate, everyday tactic that's part of effectively reacting to an ever-changing field-state so as to best create and exploit advantageous space.

    I don't think the USMNT fundamentally, fully appreciates the philosophy of 'space' in soccer. Particularly the idea of 'creating space' and 'running into space'. That's the sort of thing the US just can't quite 'get'. When we were kids, we didn't all play soccer in the street EVERY NIGHT against bigger kids who always won. I know I didn't and I'm American and a former (bad) soccer player.

    But I completely get and feel basketball instinctively even though I'm bad at that, too. Growing up in a part of the USA known to be basketball-crazy, we all played all the time against anyone.

    We don't have anything like that in soccer in America. Well, we do have that in some Latino areas but, cross-culturally, we don't have that feeling for the game like we do basketball.

    It's all good though... no big deal. I bet the US Men's Cricket team is pretty damn good at what they do, too. But I wonder if they're gonna win the world championship soon? Or heck, even qualify out of the Caribbean.
     
  11. Sparta Rotterdam

    Sparta Rotterdam New Member

    Jun 17, 2016
    Yes
    #636 Sparta Rotterdam, Jul 1, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
    Are there actually contests that stipulate no draws? FIFA-approved contests? I actually don't know. I've never heard of that.

    And as far as I know you can't "declare" a winner of a match. I think you have to score more goals than the other team to win. I've never heard of some entity "declaring" a team the winner of a match.

    Sure, retro-active punishment for something like a ringer playing illegally could cause a ruling body to "declare" that what had been called a 2-1 win for Barca in 1913 shall have both goals declared invalid because Pele was a ringer.

    But somebody just "declaring" a winner when they scored the same number of goals as their opponent? That seems doubtful. Why would they?
     
  12. roby

    roby Member+

    SIRLOIN SALOON FC, PITTSFIELD MA
    Feb 27, 2005
    So Cal
    WC '94 Final :cry:
     
  13. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Pass back? Every pass must be forced forward or you suck.
     
  14. OfficeSpace

    OfficeSpace Red Card

    United States
    Jun 8, 2019
    People who comprehend English understood as originally posted.

    Nothing was changed. You just misunderstood.
     
  15. OfficeSpace

    OfficeSpace Red Card

    United States
    Jun 8, 2019
    Wrong.

    It's recorded as a draw in the record books and PKs are used to determine who advances.
     
  16. Add to that the Orange youth teams at the moment are loaded, so it's very likely some good quality players might think it's easier to get into a World Cup by chosing Curacao instead of trying to fight into the Orange squad.
     
  17. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    The rise of Curacao over the last several years has been remarkable.
    Since the split up the Netherlands Antilles squad, Curacao has gone from nothing to a serious "second tier" program in CONCACAF. That's not an insult. That's Canada and some significantly larger nations in that group.

    I think its just a matter of them getting their act together from an organizational point of view.

    A quarterfinal place was a nice step forward for Curacao, but also a missed opportunity. Honduras is down. Costa Rica is down. Mexico sent a weakened squad. The US is in poor form. Canada has been knocked out. Panama has been knocked out.

    If ever there's a year for a surprise winner in the Gold Cup, its this year. Maybe it'll be Haiti instead of Curacao (Haiti has beaten both Costa Rica and Canada so far).
     
  18. TimB4Last

    TimB4Last Member+

    May 5, 2006
    Dystopia
    If you want to root for a surprise winner, how about us?
     
  19. Dfwsoccer01

    Dfwsoccer01 Member

    Jun 23, 2014
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Interesting... I guess I would like to see Brazil and Germany 5,6, and 7 year old practices... Are coaches like they are here? Dads who probably never touched a soccer ball in their life? Highly doubt it. But then there’s the other aspect...how hard are these kids pushed? Because we all know now days every time you interact with a child you have to put your kid gloves on and be nice and give them all a trophy......
     
  20. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    I don't think you understand the gulf in soccer talent in the US team in the 90's. It's not that players did not "understand" the backpass. It is that players would have had to backpass to Lalas, or Agoos, or Balboa... and few (rightly) had faith this was a high percentage move. We played bunker and counter not because Dooley and Stewart and Ramos and Wegerlie and Bora did not "understand space" but because that was the most effective style for our skillset at the time...

    Kids growing up in the 70s and 80 in the US certainly had very little good soccer to digest. NASL, Soccer made in Germany, local teams. But a good number of the US team at any given moment did not grow up or learn soccer exclusively in the US.

    But today is different, and has been pretty much since the LD/Bease/Convey class. Every park in most major cities is packed with non-stop pick-up games, street games etc. Soccer is on TV 24/7. A US-grown player just sold to Chelsea for tens of millions of Euro. The problem is no longer one of culture, it is now one of utilizing the skills and players available. If anything the skill-set/soccer-smarts of the US player has outstripped that of the US coaching and adminstration.

    The biggest thing in this particular game (and if you were an actual Sparta fan you'd know) this Curacao team was not the typical "Concacaf minnow" (While yesterday's game was poorly managed by the US side for sure). Room is Nijmegen-born and showed enough at Vitesse/GAE to get a PSV transfer. Any American Abroad fan has seen Gronigen-born Bacuna at Reading over the years and know why he's now at Cardiff. He had well over a dozen Dutch U-little caps before switching. Martina is from your screen-name's neck of the woods and has played for EPL and Ered teams across a solid career, Gorre is 2nd-Gen who grew up in Dutch lockerrooms... Curacao even carried bench players like Charlie Benschop, who many of us know from this Bund play. He has yet to repeat his crazy Fortuna form, but is a solid pro, etc. etc. etc. This Curacao team is very "Dutch-trained" - with a whole lot more grit - and used it to great effect. They played their hearts out - and defended well but just couldn't score enough to be a threat. It was great watching them.

    This Curacao team is a version of some of the more successful Jamaican teams of the 90's - 2000s who were able to pull together a group of Britain-trained duals and ex-pats to slap together a very effective, athletic version of the typical "hurly-burly" Brit style, add in a bunch of heart and make a formidable side punching well above its weight.

    At the same time we have had a US team that is in a long, slow, somewhat painful transition. In the past the sum of our parts were greater than our whole, due to the fact, in part, that we didn't try to play "backpass" and "understand space" footie. We played to our strengths: Big, hard-tackling D and exceptional keeping. Fast, athletic players (for the most part) who cared more about end result than style points.

    For the past few WC cycles we have had more and more players who both understand and have the skills to play a more "understanding space/backpassing" game (for heaven's sake, a big criticism under Klinsi was all the German-raised players we had. Is your argument there wasn't enough street soccer in Germany either?) But with a transition from a more direction, counter-attacking game with a dedicated DM/sweeper, CDs who are more inclined to clear than to carry and distribute, you have to be really on the same page. And drop in quality at one or two positions changes the effectiveness of the team a lot.

    There is a reason that the Dutch, quite a few years ago, went aggressively to trying to dictate the 4-3-3 across all youth Dutch training, or that Germany, a little after that, revamped its entire youth development program after a very poor WC showing, pour millions of dollars into youth development, or that France pushed Clairefontain - the game has changed. "Kids playing pick-up in the park" happens in every US city all the time. But the great teams are taking individual skill and adding a cohesive style and strategy (and, of course, a few "once in a generation" exceptional players) to rise above the large number of highly trained and talented footie players now plying their trade world-wide.

    The US team is lacking (and has always lacked, really) a world-class striker or two. And it lacks a really exceptional and consistent coaching and development system (hampered by some technical issues with the way MLS and USSF are structured.) But the problem is not players not knowing how to "use space," it is players and coaches who are good enough to use it well.
     
    randomnoise and TimB4Last repped this.
  21. roby

    roby Member+

    SIRLOIN SALOON FC, PITTSFIELD MA
    Feb 27, 2005
    So Cal
    WC '94 :D
     
  22. It's not about getting their act together, as in Curacao soccer never is going to be nr 1. Baseball is and stays king, simply because the chances to get a good pay from it are miles ahead from soccer. The only reason that Curacao is going to be a threat in the region is because of the offspring of the to the Netherlands emigrated generation. Those people only partly play baseball and often do so in combination with soccer. In contrast to the island itself in the Netherlands soccer is king with the Curacao linked youth. I guess a few high profile Curacao related players with a few Orange matches under their belt, but dropped for better players now would have loved to be part of the Curacao team. Patrick Kluivert had to go around the Curacao community to identify eligable players, but I guess now it's in the back of the head of many player to make the right decision.
     
  23. Let me sober you up....Kids at 5 and 6 or 7, arenot drilled. 5/6 year olds are given the freedom just to enjoy themselves to grow love for soccer. The Dutch KNVB recently has given instructions to clubs parents and coaches has to keep at least 25 meters distance to the pitch where kids (until the age of 10, not sure) play, to give the kids the freedom to play their game, instead of having to listen to the frantic, sometimes pushy/aggressive directions from parents/coaches.
    It's all about developing their skills unrestricted by the parents/coaches urge to win.
     
    appwrangler repped this.
  24. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Because there is a 23 player limit?
     
  25. truefan420

    truefan420 Member+

    May 30, 2010
    oakland
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Lol just for you...

    That means something very specific and it’s not fact as I have shown it’s wrong. No where in there to do say in a game. Which would complete change the entire post. Both comments could stand alone and make sense without the other. You either changed the goal post after you got called out for being wrong or you didn’t write what you were thinking either way it’s on you. But continue to make trash comments. I’m done with you for now.
     

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