Uruguay vs CHILE, 11 de noviembre, en Montevideo (R) (Clasificatorias)

X2... los dos partidos mas dificiles ya quedaron en el pasado. En todo caso de la forma en que se perdieron no da mucha confianza para los partidos moderadamente dificiles.

 

Jeje...todo el foro a aferrarse del optimismo de zasal!

Matematicamente estas en lo correcto...pero uno puede ver cosas en terminos cualitativos, que simplemente no puedo ignorar.

 

Xuxa que jugó bien Bravo. Sin lugar a dudas el mejor del equipo Uruguayo..., junto con Suárez nos hicieron mierrrrrda los dos.

 

Saben lo peor de todo? Es que aun con lo mal que jugamos, es posible que clasifiquemos al mundial de todas maneras, porque sudamerica se acabrono con los cupos...jajaja

 

Tambien estoy de acuerdo con Zasal. Estamos a un solo punto del que va segundo, no es para nada una gran distancia.

Ahora bien, al igual que todos aca, yo igual pienso que no es el hecho de perder sino la forma. Yo creo que ninguna seleccion, con excepcion de Brasil, le ganaria a Uruguay en el Centenario. Como ya dije, lo malo es la forma con que se perdio. Hemos jugados como las we@s, pero aun no hay nada perdido, estamos recien empesando y todo puede cambiar, ojala sea asi.

Lo que yo no entiendo es como insiste en poner 3 atras y un solo contencion...Si juegas con tres atras, mas encima con un lado cojo y sin la intensidad con que se jugaba antes, no puedes poner a un solo contencion. Ahora contra Paraguay que ganemos bien, bien jugado.

 

It's a weird feeling am having towards the team. Specially with Borghi, I never liked him, it's only a matter of time until he calls it quits. The only way i see this team winning is by chance or luck. A part of me is hoping they loose on Tuesday, we all know deep inside that they will anyways...
What other options do we have?? I agree, Sampaoli is doing an amazing job with La U and should continue.

 

Thanks! I appreciate many Chilean NT fans see that Sampaoli is better with la U for the foreseable future.

Question is who should take Borghi's place if he decides to quit, should we loose horribly against Paraguay? I think it is a possibility and we have to be prepared for it with some names on the cards.

 

Although I wouldn't want it, to me, its no doubt that if we were to lose against Paraguay, Sampaoli will come in yes or yes.

 

Whoever replaces Borghi, given the possibility that he ceases to be the Chilean NT coach, has got to have a fierce offensive system in which it is the system that becomes the priority and not the players. No one is indispensable. I mean it seems to have worked with Bielsa in the Chilean NT, and it seems to be working now with Sampaoli in U. de Chile; so I think the candidates have got to have similar qualities to those two.

As much as I like Borghi, it seems like he has a very close relationship with a lot of Chilean footballers, which sadly reminds me of a lesson I learned from an expert in the entertainment industry: "if you're producing or directing a show, never cast your friends, because they will f**k you."

 

A friend of mine said something similar about this yesterday: he told me that he gets the impression that Borghi tries to be "friends" with the players and that that simply does not work. I hadn't made the connection and to me it did not seem that way but the more time that passes by, the more it seems like it's true actually.

 

Ficha del partido

http://www.cooperativa.cl/chile-viv...ontevideo/prontus_nots/2011-11-11/205816.html

Uruguay (4): Fernando Muslera, Diego Lugano, Diego Godín, Martín Cáceres, Alvaro González (67' Sebastián Eguren), Diego Pérez, Egidio Arévalo Ríos, Alvaro Pereira, Gastón Ramírez (57' Sebastián Abreu), Luis Suárez (77' Edinson Cavani), Edinson Cavani. DT: Oscar Tabárez

Chile (0): Claudio Bravo, Waldo Ponce, Marcos González, Pablo Contreras, Gary Medel, Mauricio Isla, Marcelo Díaz (61' Milovan Mirosevic), Matías Fernández, Eduardo Vargas (71' Gustavo Canales), Humberto Suazo (61' Esteban Paredes), Matías Campos Toro. DT: Claudio Borghi

Goles: 1-0: 42'; Luis Suárez, 2-0: 45'; Luis Suárez, 3-0: 67'; Luis Suárez, 4-0: 74'; Luis Suárez.

Tarjetas amarillas: Cáceres y Rodríguez (U). Contreras y Medel (CH).

Arbitro: Héctor Baldassi (ARG).

Estadio Centenario de Montevideo.

 

optimism isn't that hard if you try

i stand by it though, and i'll try to put my points forth analytically after the paraguay game

i would point out now, though, that there is much time to change.

Who remebers the last Chile-Paraguay game in Santiago, where we were not only goleados de local, but at the end of the game the fans were chanting 'ole, ole' with every paraguay pass? In the press conference a reporter asked Bielsa 'de que jugo Jimenez' and Bielsa couldn't answer he was so upset.

Point being, i doubt it will be as bad as last time, and with a win we will be in a good position moving forward.

like you said, what we see on the pitch can't be ignored. But its a long race and i still have faith in the group. It wasn't until the Argentina game with Bielsa that the last process peaked....before that it was just as inconsistent....

optimism men, a nice win against Paraguay and we're back in busieness

 

How about Bravo, as long as he is not under the posts ?

 

I wouldn't 'kill' Borghi yet....



remember that there were very few people who had the balls to take on the NT after Bielsa left, with really only Borghi and MAF willing to do it...

now, with time having passed, you might get one of the old tired Argentinian names that always come up...

maybe you can extend the list a tad bit....Martino, MAF, Sampaoli.... who else??

 

I don't want him to leave. It's counterproductive at this point. I'm just saying that we have to be prepared for that possibility. Borghi is known for quitting once he get's 'fed up'. I still think we can qualify, but it will be the usual affair, with calculator in hand.

 

it usually is bro.

last qualifiers were our best ever, with this system, and we still only qualified on the second last date....

 

Man, I wonder what it feels like to be that optimistic. I really do. All in all, I completely hear what you're saying, but let me give you my view.

I agree with you that Chile was inconsistent under Bielsa in the first part of the 2010 qualifiers. What’s more is that Chile had only amassed four points after four rounds, and that this time, Chile sits on three points (only one point less than last time) with a fourth round match that could see Chile move to six points (if the team wins, two more points than the last qualifiers at the completion of four rounds).

That would be a measurement based on quantitative means, and based on that, there is almost no difference with the commencement of the qualifiers of 2010 and therefore, seemingly, not that much to worry about.

And that’s where I see things differently.

1. Within the first four rounds of the 2010 qualifiers, Bielsa had ensured that he was accountable to the ANFP and to the fans, which meant that no one had to push for transparency. To give an example, when Chile lost 0-3 to Paraguay in Santiago, he had no problems admitting that his team had been outplayed in almost all areas, and he also stated that he was responsible for the result, given that he was trying out new things in order to continue to develop his system of play. Not so with Borghi. The event that led to five players being suspended was directly his fault because he allowed things to get to that point by not drawing any obvious boundaries. His decision was to suspend the five players, and he was applauded when this was not necessary, because he did nothing extraordinary; he did what any professional manager would do. Doing the inevitable – suspending the five – weakened the morale of his team, which lost 0-4 in Montevideo, and he cleverly and indirectly used ‘the suspended five’ as his get-out-of-jail-free card for the result (Borghi: “La semana ha sido muy dura” & “A veces resulta y otras no”).

2. Bielsa’s objectives were clear at the start of the 2010 qualifiers; the way he wanted his team to play was crystal clear. All we have gotten from Borghi at this stage is his preference for a backline of three with one defensive midfielder, Bravo in goal and Valdivia as his game-breaker. Now that Valdivia is out of the picture, Borghi will be forced to either try something tactically different (which is unlikely) or just shift his dependence on another [or other] individual(s) to get him out of trouble and/or win him games.

3. At this time during the 2010 qualifiers, Chile was not playing this poorly; nowhere near this poorly. The team was far from brilliant, but the players were showing something; they were responding to Bielsa’s instructions. In the first round, Chile lost in Buenos Aires, but it took two free-kicks from Riquelme to get Argentina over the line (this time: our defence was woeful and conceded 4; plus little team discipline). Four years ago in the second round against Peru in Santiago, Chile dismantled Peru, 2-0, without too many worries (this time: our defence conceded 2, which easily could have been six, given the four times they hit the woodwork and the couple of times the ball was cleared off of Bravo’s goal-line). Four years ago against Uruguay in Montevideo, we witnessed a scrappy war against two evenly-matched sides which ended 2-2 (this time: we played arguably the worst game we have played in a long, long time and conceded 4 when it could have been 6 or more; no heart and no discipline).

4. Borghi has insisted on using players in sub-standard form. I would assume that, had Jara been available for the game against Uruguay, he would have counted on him. Look at Bravo as the best example. I am sure that 95% of national team managers around the world right now, in Borghi’s position, would have benched Bravo at the end of round two or three and called up the next available keeper in good form. Bravo needs to be benched, at the very least temporarily, to start feeling some real pressure to improve his game. Instead, it looks like he’ll start again against Paraguay in Santiago.

5. The defence. Borghi has publicly defended his team’s recent poor results by saying that he would rather ‘attack and play with three at the back’ than ‘play with two defensive lines of four’. This tells me that the guy has no idea about how to fix the defensive problems. To insinuate that playing a backline of three has risks that will automatically, from time to time, result in conceding bags of goals is absolutely absurd. If he came out and said, “... we have serious problems in defence; we will work hard to address them”, then I’d show some optimism. We have conceded ten goals in three games, which could easily have been five or six more.

My main point in all of this is that Borghi hasn’t given us anything of substance to hold on to in order to understandably or justifiably have any grain of confidence in his team; very, very little if anything at all.

Against Paraguay, I couldn’t care less how many we score, as long as we can improve defensively, show some discipline and play with some pride.

 

being optimistic is one thing, and i don't want to come off as a Borghi apologist, because i'm not....but a few things i noted in your post

- Everything i've read from the players and the coaching staff indicates that the rules were 'very clear'...Bravo and Ponce have both stated that everyone knew 'el compromiso con el horario' and the rules about behaviour. To indicate that Borghi let things get to this point by "not drawing obvious boundaries" is, i think, unfair....the boundaries and the rules were established, that they were broken is another issue

- again, not being an apologist....but saying "its been a tough week" and "sometimes things work out and sometimes they don't" cannot be taken to be him using the suspended 5 as a get out of jail free card. I think in this case, you're being excessively hard on the coaching staff for what are normal and measured comments

Borghi has always stated that the objectives for the first 4 games were the toughest, and the most important thing was to 'sumar puntos' this year (first four games)....we'll see if he will be able to accomplish that on tuesday

As for style of play, there can be no doubt that the team has been very very inconsistent during Borghi's era, and that will have to change...

People forget that at times the team has looked very good (first half against spain, parts of copa america, against france, first half against Peru etc..).

i think there has been enough to indicate that with consistency this team can be very very good.....there is something to work with

to some extent, though not to blame it fully on this, Borghi has been let down by exceptionally bad 'individualidades', as some media have pointed out.

I'd say that playing at even an average level individually defensively (including Bravo) we would not have been eliminated from the Copa by Venezuela, and neither Argentina nor Uruguay would have scored 4 on us...

at this point, though, player selection is open to criticism

- on Argentina you are right. I would just add that in that game Chile created 1 scoring chance, while this time around we did much better offensively. not sure if that matters, but its true

- on the Peru game, i think if you go back and watch the game again you'd see that the victory was by no means a 'dismantling'.... Peru in that game created as many, if not more chances than chile, but an inspired Bravo and an uninspired Farfan led to the 2-0.... This was not a good game for Chile. It was by no means easy, or indicative of what Chile managed to accomplish with Bielsa

- Nothing to say about the URuguay game, other than losing 2 starters (and possibly the two best players on the team) three days before the game might have had more of an impact than it should have.....
- keep in mind that all 5 of the castigados played against Peru... its not to excuse the poor result, which was horrible, just to point out that it had some consequence on how the game was played

- you forgot to mention the Paraguay game... disastrous and historic loss....

- no doubt that player selection is an issue.
- i would point out that Bielsa took Jara and Bravo to the world cup, and had them play as starters throughout...even after them both showing a knack for being screw ups (i'm thinking Jara a million times, and Bravo at least 4 times including the WC....Bielsa stuck by them)
- might be sad to say, but they may be the best we have.

defense is a problem, and you're right in that it needs to be addressed

 

@ zasal911:

Good to hear your quick response, man.

If Borghi can solve two of the team's main problems by half way through the qualifiers (1. defence; 2. mental lapses + team discipline), I'll have something to feel optimistic about. As I see it, if these two problems aren't addressed, I don't think we would be moving forward at all as these two areas, together, have always been and continue to be our downfall.

 

The only problem zasal my friend with your comparissons between Bielsas`s process in regards to Borghi`s, is that by the time of each of theirs arrival to our NT, both have had to confront the CONMEBOL qualifiers in two completely diferent scenarios.

When Bielsa arrived the 7 of august in 2007, he took a completely disastrous team that had no style nor played to anything at all, inmersed in profound conflicts within each of the members of the team, after a scandalous Copa America, where no trainer wanted to take the team, which btw was ranked by FIFA below 50th and despite the individual talent of many of the players, it seemed that from nowhere the team could change its fate. His first games for Chile, were precisely those 4 initial games in the qualifiers. He had no time to actually experiment with the players he had in hand, and achieved the results we all know. It took him more than 6 months, if not longer, to start making the team look once again as a "team", and the whole qualifiers to play an unique style that gave us all the results which catapulted our NT up to 10th in the ranks.

Borghi on the other side, back in March this year (2011), received a perfectly fused, ordered and tactically well balanced united team, had time to play lots of friendlies, had a whole Copa America in order to make this team continue playing at something and maybe add a little of his own, but unfortunately, we all have seen how his stubborn, selfish and unfocused personality have transformed this "brute diamond" he received as a team, and ....... well, transformed it in the piece of low quality charcoal, that we all have seen, that doesn`t have no style, nor tactics, nor "nothing", that very unfortunately, it is "our" NT. This guy is destroying everything Bielsa ever accomplished with the team, and very likely as he usually does when things don`t work for him, he is going to probably finally quit. When that happens, we`ll be back to July of 2007 once again. With a team like ours, with all the problems it has, no one will want to come and accept the challenge. Oh yes, and he is earning almost the same amount of money that Bielsa did, making him one of the most highest salaries of the world and of course almost triples the one of whom follows him in our continent

Ah, of course we will not reach Brazil 2014 this time, and maybe we will have to wait for another 12 years of absence from the WC, till the next generation of players come, or maybe another 50 more years to experience another WC victory (I`m bearly 47 years old now, by that time I may be dead, and believe me, I would love to see it once again, before I pass away). Maybe when the time comes, maybe we will think a little diferent of what is more important : if severity in relation to discipline, or maybe be a little less apprehensive, in relation to it...., and more so if we want to see our team among the participating teams of a WC once again.

 

yeah brother. i'm not the biggest Borghi fan or an apologist for him, but i do think in may ways he's gotten the short end of the stick. And of all the potential replacements for Bielsa, that is between him and the other guy willing to take the job, i did think he was the best option.

I think we will make the WC and i think he will turn this all around, but like you said that will take some work.

i don't think there's a coach in the world, especially offensive minded ones like Borghi and Bielsa, that can change the brain lapses of our defenders. Its always been an issue. Maybe Pellegrini or someone like that can clean up the defense, but the cost to style of play would be even worse.

at the end of the day the players play, and the first thing we need is to have defenders that are at an appropriate level for international play.

Like i said before i think the loss in Argentina wasn't necessarily a tactical one... In Uruguay the game was lost to a large extent from the bench, but the benefit of the doubt can be given to a guy who lost his 3 best players a few days before game day and during the warm up.'

fixing the defense is the key thing. From then you can move on.

I would like to see more pressing up front as well.... but we'll see how this game tuesday goes.

 

i think you're right. you can't give Borghi the same lenience as Bielsa because he inherited a team that had worked together for some time and had shown what they were capable of.

there is no arguing with this.

i would point out two things, though, that often get overlooked.

1. Borghi's job has been made 100x more difficult by the shadow of Bielsa and how he left the seleccion. The 'viudos' both in the media and among the fans were never going to be happy with anyone but Bielsa, and the criticisms as a result have been somewhat unfair and overly harsh.... Anything Bielsa did was an improvement over what came before

2. Borghi inherited the Chilean national team on a decline. I've pointed out before how it was an elite team, legit top 10, from the Argentina game to the Ecuador game.....after that, including friendlies and the World Cup, which were about 6-8 months after the qualifiers ended there was a notable drop in individual and team performance.

Borghi did inherit a good team from Bielsa, but one that at that moment had peaked and was lowering in performance. Its not a criticism of Bielsa, its natural for teams to have dips...but, for instance, had Chile gone to the World Cup at its peak then we wouldn't have had such difficulty with Honduras, Switzerland...and would've done better against Spain and Brazil