#12 RED Player was given a caution earlier in the first half of the match. Tough match and by the mid point in the second half 9 cautions have been given . At the 74 minute #12 RED Player committs a reckless challange, the referee sees a great advantage and allows play to continue knowing the #12 Red Player is still to be cautioned. The advantage is realized, only a fabulous save on the part of the keeper and he disperses the ball and up the field we go. Wouldn't you know it our still to be cautioned #12 red player takes a shot on net and it is blocked by a deliberately handled ball in the blue penalty area from a blue defender who clearly denies the goal. You whistle play dead and do what??? Full details and what restart? This time I will let others have a crack before I give my answer. LOL )
Let's try this....Play is stoped for the DOGSO on the blue defender. First (with your AR's on watch) show Mr.Red#12 his 2nd. yellow and his red and send him packing. Then address the blue defenders' DOGSO, with his red and exit. Restart with a PK for Red.. and have fun the rest of the match!
Deal with the blue defender first. Send him off. Then issue #12 the second caution follow with the red card and send him off the field. Restart with a penalty kick for red. Since the LOTG state to caution at the next stoppage in play you have to allow play to continue even if it results in a goal by red #12. The other option (not recommended) is to invent a stoppage for match control purposes. Whistle a foul if it looks like #12 is in position to shot on goal. What would you do?
Alberto; as you said, in the LOTG it says to deal with the caution at the next stoppage. That would be the whistle for the DOGSO,, so wouldn;t you address the Red#12 first, as that predated the Blue defenders actions?
I suspect Alberto's reasoning is that everyone's attention is probably on the foul at hand. It should be handled first. Then, since we have the game stopped, we need to deal with this outstanding issue - red second yellow/red card. I also agree, that with a second yellow to deliver, I would be looking for reasons to stop the game.
You know I thought about what would be best for match control purposes. I felt if I send off the red #12 player first, there is going to be massive protests as to why he was sent off after scoring a goal and I still have to deal with the DOGSO. So by sending the defender first, red sees I have dealt with the issue of the DOGSO. Few if any other than the team captain or coaching staff for red will be aware or remember that #12 has already been cautioned in the previous half. Now that that issue is resolved I can deal with the other misconduct, the second cautionable offense. Your thoughts.
1. You observe the blue player's foul of deliberate handling and SFP/Misconduct to deny a goal. 2. Stop play, point to the penalty mark indicating a PK restart. 3. Here I would deal with the red player's misconduct first, telling the blue defender not to leave town until I get back to him. This keeps red from sneaking off to avoid the caution , and at the same time lets everyone know that he will be dealt with. I would then move to keep the players in sight and between me and my AR to watch for any addtional misconduct. Then I would record, caution the red player, show the yellow then the red, and watch the player leave the field. Then I would go to the blue defender, record, send him off, shwo the red, watch him off, make sure both were gone from the area of the field. 4. Restart with a PK This is quite similar to a situation I had in an ISL match this past Fall, which I did not handle correctly.
Re: Re: upgrade in progress #4 OH my aching head I would have agreed with Alberto -- the hot spot is the DOGSO -- but I wonder what Whipple experienced. Whipple, can you tell us?
Re: Re: upgrade in progress #4 OH my aching head Sherman didn't handle a situation correctly?!?!?!?!?! That would be a surprise to the coaching ranks of the South Shore!!! Scott (suddenly realizing that this post is going to get me nothing but U11 middles all spring!!)
Re: Re: Re: upgrade in progress #4 OH my aching head This Fall doing a boys single in the ISL, during a couple of agressive changes in possession near midfield between blue and orange, an orange midfielder, while being dispossed, nearly ripped the jersey off a blue opponent. because blue had a clear advantage I signalled APO and told orange I would be back to him. Play continued, possession changed again, and Orange broke up the wing, crossed to the PA and a blue defender, with no move the contest the header, pushed the orange attacker down with his arms. I stopped play for the tactical foul, ran to the spot of the infraction, signaled a PK as the restart. then cautioned the blue defender for UB, who in ISL must be substituted, and then looked for the Orange player. It took a few moments because he was all the way at the other end of the field with the Orange keeper, apparantly hoping I would forget about him. In the meantime, I had 20 opposing players, with time to get in trouble at my end. It was a very awkward situation, though time stops to deal with misconduct, and words started behind me as I started to move towards the player, so I had to call him down, and turn to keep an eye on the rest of the players. Fortunately I was able to make light of it with the players,while we waited for the Orange perp to return, book, show the card, substitute, and adminisinter the PK, but I realized that had I dealt with the Orange player first, and kept the defender at bay with a word, the situation would have been more managable. It follows the sequence of events, and the area is concentrated around the restart, in this case a PK.
Here's what I would do: After realizing the handling on blue, whistle to stop play. Run to the penalty spot and pointing to the spot, indicating a penalty kick. I would then seperate the blue player from the rest and send him off for denying the goal with his hand. I would then seperate #12 red from the rest and show the yellow card and then red and send him from the field of play. Restart would be the penalty kick Up until the misconduct by blue, you have not stopped play but already made up your mind to caution #12 at the next stoppage. He is still a player and can still play the ball until you stop play and send him off for receiving the 2nd caution. The misconduct by blue happens and that is when you stop play. Now you deal with blue and then #12 red.
Re: Re: Re: Re: upgrade in progress #4 OH my aching head Could not orange have retalliated against the blue defender while you were dealing with the first orange player (wasn't he at the other end)? Isn't that more likely if blue hasn't already been "punished" and removed from the FOP?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: upgrade in progress #4 OH my aching head Not in this case. The key idea is not to turn your back on the area of active play so it was important to keep both perps and ther rest of the player in sight. Since I had not sent the blue player off, he would be around for retalitation in any event. In Griz's example, the handling was not against a player, the restart was indictated, both teams would know that the refere was not done with him, so retaliation was unlikely, so the referee could take time for the cautioning and sending off of the red, followed by sending off the blue. Red's foul was an offense against an opponent. This was the more likely target for retaliation so in any event we should probably deal with that one first.
Oops! WARNING: Don't try this at home (or on your test). As soon as Red #12 gets the ball, "TWEET!!!". Me: OFFSIDE. AR: Nat, I didn't raise the flag. There's another defender back there. Me: Oops. My bad. Me: Drop ball right here. #12, let's take a walk.
Re: Oops! Tricks always seem to back fire. Be honest with the game and yourself. If you have decided not to allow #12 to get the ball after allowing the advantage, just blow your whistle, stop play, send #12 off, and restart with an IDFK for the opponents. The opponents will then be fairly treated and you won't look like a monkey. :^)
Re: Re: Re: upgrade in progress #4 OH my aching head You must be talking to a totally different bunch of coaches than I run into. The one's I hear from would probably stroke out if they ever thought I got a single call right. ... and what makes you think you are going to get middles? ... do you recall a certain Snickers challeng round match where the CR wouldn't change his diagonal, in spite of the fact that is AR was up to his ankles in muck and it was nearly sucking his shoes off every time he made a run down the line? Funny... they don't have a little smiley face with an evil grin...
Re: Re: Re: Re: upgrade in progress #4 OH my aching head No they don't, but I offer if anyone could come up with one it would be appreciated.
Ooop OUCH! I remember the CR sheepishly admitting that when he runs the 'other' diagonal, he gets POed midway through the first half when he thinks that his ARs have walked off the field. BTW...both coaches of that match had a good time watching my AR2 go through hell on his line! Scott
I've received static from state ref officials, but I frequently run a yard or two inside or outside the touchlines when possible with mucky touchlines. I try to warn substitutes and coaches when I do this, because I've taken out a few players running the lines.
Obviously you have a great deal more common sense than the gentleman who handled AR2 duties for me that day!!!! Scott (it's hitting the fan now!!!)
Re: Re: Oops! If we approach this from the two angles of YES I know he is on a caution and is in for his second NO I remain only aware of the need to caution now after the advantage the realization comes later after the blue defender DOGSO I like to think that if I was aware that the #12 red player was actually on the second caution I would blow for stoppage immediately. A DFK and a playing a man up is a definate advantage. IF and a mighty big IF, the advantage was as sure a goal as could be possible under normal play and the keeper's save kept play active, as soon as #12 red touched the ball or became involved in the play I stop play. I do have a slight inclination to restart with a drop ball citing #12 red as an outside agent since he should be sitting in the change room. So in some way NSA and I sort of agree If you are not aware, with 9 cautions we can forgive maybe not picking it up immediately once the blue defender stops the #12 red shot. MY observant ARs with help from 4th official would be wiggling the flag like crazy as they know there is something uncool about this whole situation. I would be very interested in how those reading this believe or think how an AR, 4th official could communicate with the CR? When the CR played the original advantage is there a way the AR could be made aware that the CR was going to go back and caution and if the AR /4th KNEW the #12 red player was in fact allready on a yellow?? Should he be signalling this to the referee or does he wait and see what the referee does before getting him this info??? If I was about to red card the blue defender for the DOGSO or go back to the #12 red player to caution and then realize it was a second yellow and he should have been sent from the field yet now he creates a scoring chance and gets a defender sent off my mind would be in utter confusion. If Whipple said he did a proceedural mistake in a similar incident I can well imagine the flood of "What have I done!" flush over me. I would pray my AR was wiggling the flag and with our eye contact we would speaking about this before I was to do anything. Well we can hope! ) I feel to red card the blue defender for DOGSO when that #12 red player who shot the ball was on a second yellow and must be sent off is against the spirit and intent of the laws. Referee error can be corrected provided no restart has taken place. Once I was sure of the 2nd yellow and the fact the #12 red player had participated in the play after the advantage. I will drop ball at that point subject to law 8 special circumstances. The blue defender could not be quilty of DOGSO as the red player has no rights to continue in the match. I might consider a caution for the USB actions of the blue defender as justifiable after all he did attempt an unfair act under normal circumstances. Consider this if the #12 red player scored on the shot and the blue defender did not stop or touch the ball you give goal and then send the goal scorer off?? Do you think you could sell that to any player on the blue team?????? I gag just thinking about it. LOL )
Unfortuanately there was no way around that little mini-swamp on that field. If they plan to use it this Spring, I will have to remember to talk to the person in charge of the fields down there about improving the drainage because it it not just awkward for the assistants but a problem for players as well. I believe that last Fall was the first season for that field. Please note, that when I did my center, the AR's were not in the muck. I beginning to think that I am much too good to you guys, particularly when you hear of the things some assignors get away with. Sherman
Re: Re: Re: Oops! Griz, My sense is that having recognized the misconduct, and in this case applying the advantage, and haveing seen that advantage materialize, the only provision we have for dealing with it is at the next stoppage in play. But I do not believe that the referee, based upon the flow of the game prior to that stoppage, and unilaterally or arbitrairly, may now interfere or inetervene in the outcome of the match by creating a stoppage out of pure cloth. We are, in a very real sense, bound to our course, even should the player to be cautioned score a decisive goal. This is not to say that we cannot look for an opportune stoppage, which goes to Nat's idea a bit, but without the need for deception, such as whistling a hard tackle which you might normally have let go, but I do not feel that we can just decide to stop play. Remember, a player is a player until he has been substituted or sent-off, and every player, even those with an unissued second caution hanging over their heads, are still players and have the same rights of any player to contest, pevent a goal, or if they are so fortunate, score one. A player can never be an outside agent. My first mentor as a referee, some thirty two years ago once told me that the only thing a referee can ever get wrong is the restart. "None of our other desicions are ever wrong, it is just that some are more unpopular than others." Though it may be terribly unpopular, if red #12 scores it does not violate the spirit of the game. It is the game. He was there because you applied the greater advantage for blue, and did not stop play at that time. Blue had their chance. Had they scored, you would have then cautioned red. They didn't, play continues, it is a dynamic sport. We must be proponents of that dynamic and wait unitl play stops to take care of old business, put it behind us and put the ball back in play. Sherman