Unpopular USMNT or US Soccer Opinions

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by GiallorossiYank, Feb 9, 2017.

  1. btlove

    btlove Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 29, 2017

    Me: most journos are giving Yedlin good reviews

    You: they do?? Only rave reviews I’ve seen is from Newcastle and US fans

    Me: here are some examples.

    You: well of course they rated him!

    And again, the only evidence you have presented is your own opinion, no video, no stats. I think those journalists are more likely to have watched than you are. Keep those goalposts moving
    Eighteen Alpha repped this.
  2. iad_22201

    iad_22201 Member+

    Jan 2, 2009
    Washington, DC
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not moving the goalposts at all to point out that English paper player ratings are entirely predictable and bear little resemblance to what happened on the pitch.
  3. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    Either that or, you know, the players on NUFC played pretty well in beating a strong team with very good players.

    Apropos of nothing: are you Brian Straus or affiliated with him?
    btlove repped this.
  4. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Yedlin had a decent game but only someone with a severe case of homerism would say he played like an above-average EPL RB. I still pencil him in as our starter or second guy at RB, but that's not exactly praise.

    Newcastle may well be fighting to avoid the red line in the coming weeks, and that's on their anemic attack (5 goals scored, only the worst team, Watford, has fewer).

    And, in their system, the fullbacks are part of that attack.
  5. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    DHC1 repped this.
  6. btlove

    btlove Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 29, 2017
    By many accounts, Yedlin played an above average game, against an above average team. I don’t think it is “severe homerism” to think he looked above average. Not great, not excellent, above average. For one game. In a league that has good right backs but also bad ones. But that’s just me.
  7. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    Here's my unpopular opinion:

    Yedlin is a better outside back than Almiron is an attacking midfielder.
    LouisianaViking07/09 and btlove repped this.
  8. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich Red Card

    Jul 11, 2006
    Dude Bruce can turn any player into Bruce. Almiron should be playing for a better team where his talents are not wasted.
  9. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Yedlin is in good form, but for him that means he's an asset in attack more than in defense.
    juveeer and LouisianaViking07/09 repped this.
  10. OWN(yewu)ED

    OWN(yewu)ED Member+

    May 26, 2006
    chico, CA
    our 2002, 2006, and 2010 teams had more talent than our current pool. But i guess thats no longer an unpopular opinion.
  11. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Jonathon Spector, Jonathan Bornstein, Benny Feilhaber, Clarence Goodson, Robbie Finlay, Jose Torres, Jay DeMerit, Edison Buddle, Ricardo Clark, Herculez Gomez - the 2010 squad was a classic.
    DHC1 and largegarlic repped this.
  12. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    The 2010 squad for sure. Not sure about 2002 or 2006.
  13. OWN(yewu)ED

    OWN(yewu)ED Member+

    May 26, 2006
    chico, CA

    Goalkeepers: Keller (Borussia Mönchengladbach/Germany), Marcus Hahnemann (Reading/England) and Tim Howard (Manchester United/England).

    Defenders: Steve Cherundolo (Hannover 96/Germany), Eddie Pope (Real Salt Lake/M.L.S.), Oguchi Onyewu (Standard Liège/Belgium), Eddie Lewis (Leeds United/England), Frankie Hejduk (Columbus/M.L.S.), Carlos Bocanegra (Fulham/England), Cory Gibbs (ADO Den Haag/the Netherlands) and Conrad (Kansas City/M.L.S.).

    Midfielders: Landon Donovan (Los Angeles/M.L.S.), Reyna (Manchester City/England), John O'Brien (Chivas USA/M.L.S.), DaMarcus Beasley (PSV Eindhoven/the Netherlands), Clint Dempsey (New England/M.L.S.), Bobby Convey (Reading/England), Pablo Mastroeni (Colorado/M.L.S.) and Ben Olsen (D.C. United/M.L.S.).

    Forwards: Brian McBride (Fulham/England), Eddie Johnson (Kansas City/M.L.S.), Ching (Houston/M.L.S.) and Josh Wolff (Kansas City/M.L.S.).

    Thats a good squad by our standards, and comparing to today. Painfully shallow at forward, but other than that we at least had guys like Hejduk, Conrad, and Mastroeni who would give 120 percent. I think we gotta start appreciating the Conrad, Mastroeni, Convey, Bocanegra, and Hejduks of the game for what they brought; which was commitment and effort. They had the mentality that would have played McKinnie, Adams, Yedlin, Brooks, and some of the younger guys off the field. That 2006 team was disappointing in what could have been, thats for sure. They had a tough as nails group though, and Ghana game aside, they laid it all on the field.
  14. OWN(yewu)ED

    OWN(yewu)ED Member+

    May 26, 2006
    chico, CA
    and in 2002, obviously Donovan, Beasley, Pope, Friedal, Cleatus, JOB, Reyna......it was a good mix of youth and experience. And again, I think would mentally and physically beat our current guys off the field.
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  15. LordofBrewtown

    Wigan Athletic
    United States
    Nov 19, 2018
    Yes. IMO, Arena never received nearly enough blame for poor coaching in the 2006 World Cup.
  16. OWN(yewu)ED

    OWN(yewu)ED Member+

    May 26, 2006
    chico, CA
    and sadly , I’d still take it over berhalter or klinsmann every day and twice on Sunday .
  17. rgli13

    rgli13 Member+

    Mar 23, 2005
    Memphis, Tn
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    you misspelled "heres a simple fact"...
  18. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I am of the opinion that many people over rate our teams from 2002 to 2010 and under rate 2014 and our current pool. People either just look at how far we got or game or two to make judgments. What is clear is none of the teams have put in complete tournaments and they have never gotten more wins than losses.

    That 2006 squad had a number of missing pieces and players who werent up to the task. The only positives of that tournament was the Italy game. We got run off the field by the Czechs and were completely flat vs Ghana.

    There was no depth in midfield which was clear based on Arena taking an injured John Obrien and when Reyna got injured, the response was Ben Olsen. Keller was over 35 and we had no left back. On top of it, the team was built around a 24 yo who lacked the mentality achieve that responsibility.

    The 2014 team would have crushed the 2006 side. We have better talent now but wouldn't know based on who is being called in. This team should be turned over to the youngsters and have enough veterans play roles and hold the team together.
  19. um_chili

    um_chili Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Lots of time-selectiveness at work here. We were great in the run up to the 2006 WC, but then had some unfortunate injuries and suffered especially in terms of lacking any punch at forward in the months leading up to the WC. We played three friendlies against mid-level opposition and won two and lost one, playing convincingly in zero games.

    But what squad you pick matters a lot. Yeah the 2010 GC squad or the 2007 CA squad sucked, but they were weaker because the senior team had just played in and done well in more important tournaments. And I think our 2013 team was among the best we've had, the mix of old and new talent reminded me of 2002.

    I honestly think the talent question is virtually impossible to answer because all we can really assess is how players play and what results they get. You can always attribute poor performance to idiosyncratic factors or poor coaching. The one factor that's hard to dispute is that there was a pretty significant generational failure with development a few years back that contributed to in part to the disastrous 2018 WCQ campaign.
    russ repped this.
  20. #1 Feilhaber and Adu

    Aug 1, 2007
    #1295 #1 Feilhaber and Adu, Nov 11, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
    The global soccer world is way more competitive now, then it was back in 2002, 2006 or 2010.

    The hype we put on past players to save face for the corrupt irresponsible USSF/SUM leadership is unreal and then we ignore the current talent pool/ players who play at far higher levels in a far more competitive global soccer environment.

    Christian Pulisic (Champions League)
    Tyler Adams (Champions League)
    Fabian Johnson (Champions League)
    Weston McKennie (Champions League)
    Sergino Dest (Champions League)
    Timothy Weah (Champions League)
    John Brooks (Europa League)
    Timothy Chandler (Europa League)
    Tyler Boyd (Europa League)
    Deandre Yedlin (EPL)
    Josh Sargent (Bundesliga)
    Alfredo Morales (Bundesliga)
    Zach Steffan (Bundesliga)
    Jozy Altidore

    How many players we had on Champions league rosters in 2006?

    On top of this, first 1,250 USMNT minutes. =

    Weston McKennie, 6 goals , 3 Assists vs

    Michael Bradley, 1 goal and 1 assist.

    The talent we have now would destroy past generations. The only thing that hasent changed is that its the same people from the 90's who are still in charge at the top.
    Eighteen Alpha and bsky22 repped this.
  21. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I would what is going on in this thread is nostalgia over teams that werent nearly as good as people remember. There has been an increasing amount of unwarranted expectations since 2002.

    I re-evaluated the 2006 cycle and 2002 after the 2006 WC. Americans in Germany expected the team to go deep and we actually had a chance to advance if we had gotten the job done against Ghana.

    How did we get such an absurd FIFA ranking and expectations become so warped? Who did we beat from outside our region? Venezuela (2), Wales, Paraguay, Poland(2), Japan, Norway, and Latvia. That isn't an impressive list. The dominated the region with many hold overs from 2002, a couple of up and comers, and a lot of Ralston level players. The troubles were apparent the whole cycle. We had no left back.

    My view is that the 2002 through 2014 teams were pretty much at the same level quality with 2002 team having a bit more depth and mix from veterans to youngsters.

    Here are the 2006 cycle games. What is impressive? Note we tied Panama in the Gold Cup before it was deemed a travesty 10 years later.

    420 El Salvador November 17, 2002 2–0 Friendly
    421 Canada January 18, 2003 4–0 Friendly
    422 Argentina February 18, 2003 0–1 Friendly
    423 Jamaica February 12, 2003 2–1 Friendly
    424 Venezuela March 29, 2003 2–0 Friendly
    425 Mexico May 8, 2003 0–0 Friendly
    426 Wales May 26, 2003 2–0 Friendly
    427 New Zealand June 8, 2003 2–1 Friendly
    428 Turkey June 19, 2003 1–2 Confederations Cup GS
    429 Brazil June 21, 2003 0–1 Confederations Cup GS
    430 Cameroon June 21, 2003 0-0 Confederations Cup GS
    431 Paraguay July 6, 2003 2–0 Friendly
    432 El Salvador July 11, 2003 2–0 Gold Cup GS
    433 Martinique July 11, 2003 2–0 Gold Cup GS
    434 Cuba July 19, 2003 5–0 Gold Cup QF
    435 Brazil July 23, 2003 1–2 Gold Cup SF
    436 Costa Rica July 26, 2003 3–2 Gold Cup 3PG
    437 Denmark January 18, 2004 1–1 Friendly
    438 Netherlands February 18, 2004 0–1 Friendly
    439 Haiti March 13, 2004 1–1 Friendly
    440 Poland March 31, 2004 1–0 Friendly
    441 Mexico April 28, 2004 1–0 Friendly
    442 Honduras June 2, 2004 4–0 Friendly
    443 Grenada June 13, 2004 3–0 World Cup Q
    444 Grenada June 20, 2004 3–2 World Cup Q
    445 Poland July 11, 2004 1–1 Friendly
    446 Jamaica August 18, 2004 1–1 World Cup Q
    447 El Salvador September 4, 2004 2–0 World Cup Q
    448 Panama September 8, 2004 1–1 World Cup Q
    449 El Salvador October 9, 2004 2–0 World Cup Q
    450 Panama October 13, 2004 6–0 World Cup Q
    451 Jamaica November 17, 2004 1–1 World Cup Q
    452 Trinidad and Tobago February 9, 2005 2–1 World Cup Q
    453 Colombia March 9, 2005 3–0 Friendly
    454 Honduras March 19, 2005 1–0 Friendly
    455 Mexico March 27, 2005 1–2 World Cup Q
    456 Guatemala March 30, 2005 2–0 World Cup Q
    457 England May 28, 2005 1–2 Friendly
    458 Costa Rica June 4, 2005 3–0 World Cup Q
    459 Panama June 8, 2005 3–0 World Cup Q
    460 Cuba July 6, 2005 4–1 Gold Cup GS
    461 Canada July 8, 2005 2–0 Gold Cup GS
    462 Costa Rica July 11, 2005 0–0 Gold Cup GS
    463 Jamaica July 16, 2005 3–1 Gold Cup QF
    464 Honduras July 21, 2005 2–1 Gold Cup SF
    465 Panama July 24, 2005 0(3)–0(1) Gold Cup F
    466 Trinidad and Tobago August 17, 2005 1–0 World Cup Q
    467 Mexico September 3, 2005 2–0 World Cup Q
    468 Guatemala September 7, 2005 0–0 World Cup Q
    469 Costa Rica October 8, 2005 0–3 World Cup Q
    470 Panama October 12, 2005 2–0 World Cup Q
    471 Scotland November 12, 2005 1–1 Friendly
    472 Canada January 22, 2006 0–0 Friendly
    473 Norway January 29, 2006 5–0 Friendly
    474 Japan February 10, 2006 3–2 Friendly
    475 Guatemala February 19, 2006 4–0 Friendly
    476 Poland March 1, 2006 1–0 Friendly
    477 Germany March 22, 2006 1–4 Friendly
    478 Jamaica April 11, 2006 1–1 Friendly
    479 Morocco May 23, 2006 0–1 Friendly
    480 Venezuela May 26, 2006 2–0 0 Friendly
    481 Latvia May 28, 2006 1–0 Friendly
    482 Czech Republic June 12, 2006 0–3 World Cup GS
    483 Italy June 17, 2006 1–1 World Cup GS
    484 Ghana June 22, 2006 1–2 World Cup GS
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  22. um_chili

    um_chili Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #1297 um_chili, Nov 11, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
    Remember the "5th" ranking was the FIFA/Coke ranking, which weighted things like continental championships and WCQ/WC performance very highly. In early 2006, we'd won two of the last three GCs, we'd qualified for the WC four times in a row, and we'd reached the knockouts at two of those WCs. Few teams in Europe or SA could match this because their level of competition was much higher, so the rankings with our good results in a weaker region flattered us a lot.

    2006 was about as dialed in as I've ever been to the WC. So while I was then as now a total US homer, I remember cringing when our "5th in the world" status was touted in ads about the USMNT (and it totally was). I went to Germany for the WC that year and when people asked me how I thought we'd do, I told them it would be a big feat just to get out of the group given the strength of opposition.

    If there's a difference pre/post 2014, to me it's that we've started to get a lot more really bad results that we didn't before. We used to be pretty consistent beating or at least getting a draw against teams in Concacaf other than Mexico (and sometimes them too). The losses we've had in competitive games against Panama, Jamaica, T&T, and Guatemala just did not happen during the prior decades (though sometimes we came close). That to me is the biggest evidence of post-2014 decline: not that we were beating fewer good teams, but that we were losing to more mediocre ones.

    @bsky22's list is actually good evidence of the latter point. In those four years we lost to Concacaf teams twice: Mexico away in WCQ and CR away in WCQ. No ignominious failures against weaker teams. Our worst losses in this period were to the likes of Turkey in the 2003 CC (they were just coming off a WC Semifinal run, not bad) and Morocco in the pre-WC friendlies (as I posted above, evidence of a team that was waning in form at just the wrong time). We may not have been world-beaters at this time but neither did we shit the bed against subpar foes the way we have frequently of late.
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  23. #1 Feilhaber and Adu

    Aug 1, 2007

    And why are we shitting the bed now, with far better talent and players that score hat-tricks for champions league team?

    As a reminder

    here is Jay Berhlater being corrput and causing chaos.

    "Over the past year, U.S. Soccer’s chief commercial director Jay Berhalter—the brother of Columbus Crew SC coach Gregg Berhalter—has started taking over a lot of the day-to-day technical director duties. Berhalter even called an important meeting in Chicago in August that did not include Klinsmann"


    This same man is responsible for hiring the General Manger who hired the current coach, who is the BROTHER of Jay berhalter.

    A current coach who subs out Pulisic and then the player scored a hat-trick for a champiosn league team.

    We are failing because of the top people in USSF, should have been removed a long time ago.

    How many New York Times Articles is it going to take for fans on here to stop making excuses for the same insular crowd that dont give a shit about us?
  24. um_chili

    um_chili Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Have I missed where people around these boards have defended the USSF or Berhalter? No way any rational person could read my posts in this thread or elsewhere that way. Seems to me the sentiment around BS.com is 100% the USSF pretty much sucks, with opinion on Berhalter ranging from Fire Gagg Now (majority) to Maybe Gagg Will Stop Screwing Up But I'm Not Betting on It (minority). I have seen exactly zero people make any excuses for the USSF or the results of their poor decisions.
    wixson7 repped this.
  25. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    The game advances all over the planet, not just here. To make a real gain we'd need to advance faster than the others, but that is not happening.

    Also, soccer is an old sport where the entire planet is involved. As a result, the body of theory (tactics & strategy) is quite big, perhaps bigger than any other sport or game outside chess.

    A soccer coach has to keep up to date like, say, a computer scientist or a genomics researcher: every week there are new additions, new exploits, new variations.

    Only in the last couple of years the following important books have been published:

    "How To Watch Soccer" by Ruud Gullit (2017)
    "The Mixer" by Michael Cox (2018)
    "The Names Heard Long Ago: How the Golden Age of Hungarian Football Shaped the Modern Game" by Jonathan Wilson (2019)
    "Zonal Marking: The Makings of Modern European Football" by Michael Cox (2019)
    "The Barcelona Legacy: Guardiola, Mourinho, and the Fight for Football's Soul" by Jonathan Wilson (2018)
    "The European Game" by Daniel Fieldsen (2017)
    "Football Hackers: The Science and Art of a Data Revolution" by Christoph Biermann (2019)

    And this is only in English. And only the "must have" sorts of books for up-to-date managers. If you consider the important books published in German, Spanish, Italian, French, Portuguese and Russian, you easily get over 50 books from 2017 onward that have analysis and new tactics around.

    In my opinion, we're not moving forward fast enough mainly because we lack up-to-date coaching. Take for example MLS, that seems (to me) to lag about a decade with respect to more modern leagues: when a more modern coach arrives, at first he looks good, but after a few months facing the same outdated guys, he falls into complacency and starts losing his edge.

    It's not a good idea for a coach in the up-and-up to get involved in the American system: all it will do for him is get him stuck, providing no motivation to keep updating himself.

    As Bielsa once quipped: "a man with new ideas is a madman until his ideas triumph." In the USA, there are no madmen. It's a shame.
    juveeer repped this.

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